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Author Topic: Wheel seal?  (Read 3371 times)
John316
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« on: December 21, 2009, 10:24:19 AM »

We started throwing oil, from BETWEEN the drive duel's. There is absolutely no oil that we can see from the front (driver side), of the axle. Is that a seal leaking? If so, it just started.

BTW, the transmission is good...wheewww!!!

God bless,

John
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 10:31:42 AM »

Sounds like it to me but i am no expert.  A shop where i was having some other work done on my bus found that one of my rear seals was starting to leak so i had them fix it. Could not see it until they took the wheels off for access for what they were doing.....on the other hand i now have a front wheel seal that just started leaking recently. Another project to do!
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 12:02:17 PM »

By "between the drive duals" do you mean between the two tires on one side, or in the middle of the coach between left and right duals?

Typically, oil from a seal will leak inside, behind the duals. Are your wheels open, or do you have covers on them (simulators, hub caps)?
Could also be an axle gasket on the hub.

It's probably a wheel seal. You'll have to pull the axle and hub to replace it. Possibly your brakes are oiled now, too.

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Craig Shepard
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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 12:15:51 PM »

Generally seals don't go out spontaneously.  Sometimes a new one will fail to seat properly but if a seal starts leaking after it hasn't been leaking for a long time I'd be looking hard at the bearing.  Something caused the seal to start leaking.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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johns4104s
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 12:57:13 PM »

If your coach has stood for long periods then the seals tend to leak when you start to put the miles back on it. A fellow once told me the one area of maintaence he would do on a used coach purchase would be to change out all the hub seals. He is right as 5 of my seals have started to leak since I purchased the coach 2 years ago.

John

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DaveG
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 05:07:35 PM »

Craig...good questions to ask and get answered.

By the way & FWIW, some older hubs used a "slinger" set-up that would sling the oil from the leaking hub seal out onto the wheel area rather than contaminate the brake lining.
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John316
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 06:40:08 PM »

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Here is the scoop. It was/is a leaking seal. I was able to get it into the shop today. They also found that the seal on the other side, was leaking too.

We do have simulators on there, but they are coming off. I would have changed the seals myself, but I don't have a torque wrench, that size, and I don't have the time.

It was slinging the oil from between the duels (between the two drive tires). It was getting slung out, and I could smell it, hence why I checked. Those seals were brand new 30K, ago. So I don't have any clue why they would be leaking. They shouldn't be, since everything was rebuilt/ replaced. They are also checking the bearings, while they are in there.

Dave, we don't have that "old slinger" style. That is how I knew they were leaking and have never leaked before.

Bob, I sure hope that it is something spontaneous, but we will find out. Central Power is working on it tonight (I know, they aren't your usual shop, for that kind of stuff, but we trust them, it is so hard to find someone you trust).

God bless,

John
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 07:08:07 PM »

A very well respected bus mechanic told me recently (when I had 2 seals go on mine) that leaking seals are usually the result of over-tight bearings.

Just passing that on. Can't confirm it, but trust everything he says about buses. I the one who replaced these, and while I don't believe they were too tight, I have never
claimed to be an expert on anything. Will see if any more go out as I set the bearings the same on all of them.


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Craig Shepard
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John316
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 07:33:40 PM »

Fascinating, Gump. Thanks for the info. I will keep that filed ( Wink) in the back of my mind...somewhere.

Great info. Thanks!

God bless,

John
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 07:42:17 AM »

Wheel seals are consumables, and best changed out on a schedule, not on failure.

In commercial service, pulling the wheel end apart for a regulated annual inspection is a fine trigger to put in fresh seals.

In busnut service, we are perhaps less vigilant in taking the wheel ends apart for inspection...

A leaking wheel seal lands you smack into the middle of the debate on whether or not you have ruined your brake linings by way of oil soaking them. (NO, don't start it again here, please)

Another bit of inspiration to doing some periodic tear down for inspection?

All the parts will come apart, if taken apart on some regular basis.
Greasing the various bits and pieces is so much easier with the thing disassembled.
Inspect and re-lube the bearings
Inspect, clean up and lube the brake components.
Install fresh wheel seals and fresh hub seals.
Record the measurements taken of your brake lining thicknesses for comparison to next time.
Confirm the inside measurement of the drum is within spec, if not checked during your ownership.

And down the road you go with a greatly reduced chance of failure, and you know the condition, rather than blindly hoping...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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edroelle
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 08:59:45 AM »

Luke recommends grease as opposed to oil on conversions because of limited use.  I have changed some to grease, especially if there is wear on the spindle that a sleeve may not correct. 

Bus Warrior - your opinion please.

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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johns4104s
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 10:04:19 AM »

Buswarrior,

Very good input,

Thanks

John
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bevans6
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 10:56:51 AM »

when talking about wheel seals and grease and all of that, it's useful to also say if you are talking about drive axles, tags or steer axles.  Each is different in what it wants and what is needed to work on them.  I would think that drive axle seals would or could be replaced any time you have the drum off to do brakes, wouldn't they?  Tags and steers I think you can take the drum off without disturbing the wheel seals.

brian
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gumpy
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 11:03:31 AM »

when talking about wheel seals and grease and all of that, it's useful to also say if you are talking about drive axles, tags or steer axles.  Each is different in what it wants and what is needed to work on them.  I would think that drive axle seals would or could be replaced any time you have the drum off to do brakes, wouldn't they?  Tags and steers I think you can take the drum off without disturbing the wheel seals.

brian

They're pretty much the same. You have to disassemble the hub to replace seals.

The drums will come off the hubs without removing the hubs from the axle. That's true on all three axles.

To replace the seals, the hubs have to come off the axle. For steer and tag, it's just taking it off the spindle. For drive, you have to remove the axle from the differential tube, first.

None are overly difficult. Just messy and time consuming.


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Craig Shepard
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 12:18:09 PM »

Every job for me is messy. Smiley  All i have to do is open the engine compartment door and i am dirty. In fact i can watch somebody else open their door and i get dirty. Sad    I learned a long time ago to just put on clothes that i am going to throw away when i get through wearing them,  if i am going to do anything to my bus or cars.  I swear that dirt and grease can actually jump several feet when they see me nearby. Grin
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 01:28:52 PM »

I am doing that very job now (drive axle). Pressure washed for 2 hr. Managed to get bus bay, wheels, walls washer hose and myself covered with what is either crude oil, or tar!!! I replaced everything!!! Don't want to go there again soon. Be very careful with the seal. DO NOT TAP AREA WHERE THE RUBBER IS!! It will become useless in a few miles if the seal can't turn inside of the seal housing. P.S. Do yourself a big favor and spring for one of the axle nut sockets. They are  special so a std 4" will not work. Looks like my previous mechanic just used a redneck wrench( Chisel).
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JackConrad
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 01:59:14 PM »

  I swear that dirt and grease can actually jump several feet when they see me nearby. Grin

Ed,
  I see you suffer from the same affliction as me.  When we were dancing with a clogging group, the men wore white Levis.  I would not change into mine on until right before we went on stage--and I would still get them dirty. LOL  Jack
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 03:33:21 PM »

  I swear that dirt and grease can actually jump several feet when they see me nearby. Grin

Ed,
  I see you suffer from the same affliction as me.  When we were dancing with a clogging group, the men wore white Levis.  I would not change into mine on until right before we went on stage--and I would still get them dirty. LOL  Jack

That's probably because you had to walk past some guy who had his engine bay doors open, and everyone knows a guy can't walk past an open engine bay door without stopping and .....  Roll Eyes
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Craig Shepard
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 03:42:53 PM »

Yeah, but Craig i can stop 3 ft. away from an open door and still get dirty! Huh
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1968 MCI 5A with 8V71 and Allison MT644 transmission.  Western USA
gumpy
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 04:58:17 PM »

Yeah, but Craig i can stop 3 ft. away from an open door and still get dirty! Huh

Yeah, I know. Me too. But I've decided that's just who I am. Grease defines me!  Cheesy
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2009, 06:51:46 PM »

Ed, I too, would be supportive of greased bearings for the typical busnut duty cycle, that is, hardly driven, sits for long periods between use, and might get taken apart again sometime in the next decade...

From the many discussions and fleet experience I have read about in the transportation trade press over the last odd 20 years, synthetic, semi-synthetic, old school, oil, grease, ....

There are many supportive arguments for every type...in commercial service, where it goes down the road all the time, and gets torn down annually.

However, as soon as you get into trailers in applications that sit a lot, greased bearings have a large following.

Lube stays on all parts regardless of whether they are at the top or bottom, and the seals/mating surfaces aren't as easily dried out for the same reason: grease stays put.

I also understand that Europe is much more likely to use grease, fleet managers over there don't think much of the North American propensity for leaking wheel seals taking out a set of brake linings.

I guess I'll have to decide what to do with mine this time, the wheel ends are one of the PM jobs on the go/no go list that is keeping me off the road.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2009, 09:53:52 PM »

Buswarrior,

Are you going to Arcadia?

John
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PP
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2009, 09:26:15 AM »

Having recently done my wheel seals and not wanting to go there again, what is involved in switching to greased bearings? Can I just pack them with grease and hope for the best, or is there a kit involved to hold the grease from running into the differential when it gets warm? I want to get my ducks in a row now because I know it's just a matter of time before I'm sliding them duallys over a greased plank again LOL.
Thanks, Will
PS-Merry Xmas to all who still believe in Santa Grin
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2009, 09:29:20 AM »

Will, you can do the front and tag axle but it is what it is on the rear axle LOL they are designed for liquid grease to wash the metal particles from wear back to the housing and settle in the bottom


good luck
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2009, 09:40:58 AM »

Will, you can do the front and tag axle but it is what it is on the rear axle LOL they are designed for liquid grease to wash the metal particles from wear back to the housing and settle in the bottom


good luck

Thank you for clearing that up for me. Happy Holidays, Will
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edroelle
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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2009, 06:10:39 PM »

A kit does exist for the drive axle.   I bought a kit from Luke for the drive axle to keep the differential oil from mixing with the bearing grease.  I installed grease for the outer bearing because of wear - but I don't remember where.   Really !!

Give him a call

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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