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Author Topic: Sobering News on this Holiday.  (Read 3727 times)
Just Dallas
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« on: December 24, 2009, 07:44:26 AM »

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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 07:56:53 AM »

Dallas, thats sad but I'm afraid it'll become more common, in the past a company used to realize that the people they employ create the reason for the company to exist, the guys on the top floor may fund and guide the operation but it's the ones that roll up there shirt sleeves and get the job done that keep the show running.  It's hard for an employee to take pride in a company that doesn't care if they exist but as the trend continues and the top shelf continues to distance themselves from the work crew the more we'll see this.  When the boss walked past the guy on the floor and knew his name and the names of his kids it was harder to throw them to the wolves, now a worker is just a number that nobody cares about or takes the time to realize they are people with real families, that buy real food, with real morgages and a need for real money.  I saw this trend coming over a year ago when the local paper gave advertising space to the weekly ad from the michigan works agency, its's an agency that holds seminars intended to assist people that are out of work to find work ot at least to qualify themselves for work if a job were to become available, the ad that time was a seminar for emplorers on how to close the doors of a business and what step would have to be taken to shut down.  Sometimes I think I may have lived too long.
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 07:58:35 AM »

That's sad Dallas when Bill Flint (Flintco) owned that Co they cared for the drivers and took great care to provide the best for the drivers even private jet flights for their family with health problems




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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 08:04:36 AM »

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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 08:29:27 AM »

In deed this is sad news but I am afraid that there will be several more co.'s to do this.

I wish all the drivers well and hope all get home to be with there families.

Don
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 08:34:35 AM »

What a sad day for them! I hope they all get home and are able to celebrate! Gee Whiz!

Paul
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 09:25:01 AM »

It's sad that "business ethics" has become an oxymoron.  Arrow was a news item on last night's TV news here in Dallas.

At this time of year especially, our first thought is the drivers.  I wonder about how they're (or if they're) going to collect their trucks, and what happens to the loads for consignees. 

I find it extraordinary to try to  believe management didn't see this coming (btw, I've been a manager in transit, then have owned my own business - for decades), and preserve enough cash to finish the jobs one last time. 

Of course, airlines have been doing this, too, since Frank Lorenzo and Eastern/Continental.  More recently, ATA.  ("Hey, here's a good idea, let's drop off the passengers in Hawaii, and park the planes - oh well").  I don't think the argument works here, that if they told the drivers they were shutting down, that drivers would abandon the rigs.  (That's one of the problems we have in contracting transit services, drivers won't stay on the job to the last day of a revenue contract if their employer is loosing the job to another contractor.  In this case, the truck drivers still had to get to their home terminals - and even though there might have been a few abandoned trucks, it wouldn't be the whole fleet.

I had my car in for service yesterday, and they had one of the political channels on TV.  There was an interview of a multimillionaire business owner, who did deals on a handshake.  When business went bad, he borrowed money so he could still support his charities, then paid it back when business picked back up.  One of his points is that too many companies just do what their lawyers tell them.  Apparently, the one time he almost got shafted was when that happened - the other party's lawyers welshed on a  deal.  He apparently won in court, when an email from the other company's lawyers included the words "look for the loopholes). 

There was another one, a mill owner in Massachusetts, that kept everyone on the payroll after the mill burnt down, until he could rebuild and reopen.  It's sad that these are actually newsworthy events, rather than the norm.

I'm fortunate.  Most of my business is handshakes, or even virtual handshakes over the phone.  Only been shafted once (ever wonder why so few people want to deal with New Orleans?).  I will say that stories like Arrow's help keep me focused on doing the right thing, and guiding my consulting clients in also doing the right thing.

Arthur     

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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 09:40:26 AM »

Unfortunately Dallas, it it all too common across the board.  I spent my working life in the telephone business.  Couldn't have dreamed of a better industry to work in.  Today, I would not recommend it to any young person starting out.  They are now just like everyone else, can't see past the next quarter or the bottom line.

Towards the end of my career, anyone who was in engineering or operations, with a computer and systems knowledge, was given a special notification of a pending layoff.  A security guard would come to their desk and ask them to back away from the computer, then escort them to the boss's office.  They would then be escorted to to door and told that someone would clean out their desk and send them any personal affects.

This was because of a fear that we all had some secret programs that could destroy the company with one or two keystrokes.  I don't think anyone actually had that capability.

Len
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 09:41:52 AM »

When I was a young man I worked for Tennessee Gas and it was a tradition to stop work on the 23rd day of Dec till after Jan 1st with pay.
I carried the same tradition into my business for 27 years and a happy employee is a good employee and allowing time with family is one of the greatest gift you can give or have.  



good luck
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2009, 10:22:12 AM »

Dallas,

I agree of course.  Only question is, am I more nauseated by that behavior or heart sick for the guys stranded and out of work at Christmas. No doubt there will also be hell to pay to get their final pay check.  So what caused this  tectonic shift in business ethics human responsibility?  We all know how it used to be and how good it was....so what happened.  That is a real question!  I think every one on this board has an opinion on that and I would be interested.....

John
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 12:41:20 PM »

I live just outside Tulsa and was at the United Engine Detroit dealer talking to the manager there the other day right after this had happened. Not only did they leave these guys stranded but there last paychecks I was told bounced. Unbelievable! They could have had the decency to have all the drivers to bring the trucks to the yard and tell them after they were at least home that they were shutting down to try and reorganize.

I do allot of work with Flintco (I handle commercial facilities for Pella) and they are great people to work with and take care of there employees. We also just did work on Mrs. Flints home as well.

Sad situation for the guys stuck on the road indeed. The owners should be ashamed of their uncaring and cowardness actions. You can bet they will be home with there families.

Bryan
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 01:35:31 PM »

A lot can be blamed on shareholders.  If a company were to amass enough cash to survive a lean year or two, the shareholders would want that cash used to enrich them instead.  On the same hand, the shareholders want a profit no matter what even if it means laying off lots of employees.  Companies used to be able to take little or no profit in order to keep loyal employees during tough times.

It sounds like Arrow Trucking had their loans called in so they may not have had any choice in shutting down.  I think the finance companies could have waited until after the holidays to do this and given Arrow time for an orderly shutdown.
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 02:44:53 PM »

Brian makes a very good and timely point.....we don't have all the facts AAAANNNNDDDD their actions may have been forced by circumstances.  Now that being said......if they weren't forced GRRRRRRR Angry Angry Angry  Somebody get a rope!

No takers on how this all got turned around?  Eamon.

Observing a similar mass injustice many tears ago I said to my Mex Auto Repair Shop owner "I don't know how they can sleep at night".  He answered "Oh, they sleep very well John.....in very big and comfortable houses".  I didn't like that as a punishment.

John

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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2009, 05:32:11 PM »

I will say that stories like Arrow's help keep me focused on doing the right thing, and guiding my consulting clients in also doing the right thing.

Arthur     



Thank you for staying focused on doing the right thing. No material thing follows us past the grave, but our reputation lives long after we do. I believe that a reputation is very important, and value those with good ones.

Thank you, Arthur

Keith
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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2009, 06:30:02 AM »

The drivers were finally told to take the truck to the nearest Freightliner dealership and there they would be met with a voucher or something similar that for $200.00 to get a bus ticket home.
I looked for Arrow trucks coming up from FL yesterday and today...they did not run a lot down here.  Would have gotten them home!  Pretty much EVERY driver out here was looking for Arrow trucks.
My brother was in PA when the fuel cards were shut off with the guys at the pumps left wondering what happened!
One thing about it...the little bits of human excretement that allowed it to get to that point will answer for it!

Raincutter, the company you talked about in Mass that kept the employees on after the mill burned made Polertech material!  I am reminded of that whenever I purchase something made of it!
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« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2009, 05:30:53 PM »

Jack, absolutely right.  Arlington Mills, on Broadway in Lawrence - made, and again makes Polartec fleece.  When a company does the right thing, I hope they're rewarded (with sales).  

It's especially noteworthy after the history of mills and mill owners in Lawrence (mostly woolens), (Lowell (mostly cotton), Haverhill-shoes), and elsewhere.  My parents met in the mills of Lawrence.  I never understood the labor/management conflict of the area until I'd been long gone.  Mill owners shutting down, moving the work south, with no notice to labor.  If you're ever in the area, take in the Lowell National Historical Park - they've not only revitalized the mills and hardware, including a loom room, but they've captured a good slice of the daily life.  I now understand why so many in the area always felt like their jobs were temporary, the shoe could drop any day.

One of my uncles was, I've been told, a talented textile designer, that's what he went to school for.  When I was old enough to be aware (50's-60's), he was a janitor and night watchman.  

What happened to Arrow wasn't new, and, unfortunately, won't be a unique situation.  Brian reminded me of the night in 1975 when, earlier in the day, State Street Bank called the note of the bus company I worked for.  That's the night that the owner had a heart attack.  For the next few weeks/months, two of the sons, one other manager, and I, worked on reducing/eliminating the money-losing city service (which, of course, cost pay hours - but we were able to preserve jobs).  It finally led to funding from the local transit authority - something the owner had been against because he didn't want them meddling in how he ran his overall business.  

Speaking of rewarding companies with sales, I'm a loyal National Car Rental customer.  I was in the DC area on 9/11/01, when American called me to tell me my flight home, later that day,  had been cancelled.  They put me on a flight the next day.  I called National to extend my rental car, and the agent said "well, you're driving home, aren't you?"  When I said no, she told me everyone else was.  She then told me that, if I decided to drive home, just turn the car in, where ever/when ever - I'd only be charged for the extra days - no drop charge.  

Three days later, when I got back to Dallas and returned the car, there was someone else who had had a Budget, Thrifty, or some other company's car.  Her drop charge was $1,000, according to her.  National treated me right, and earned, in the phrase of some car dealer, a "customer for life."    

Arthur    
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2009, 05:42:24 PM »

The answer to Johned's question is likely not a simple one. Having said that I am almost certain GREED is a major part of it. I say investigate and follow the money. As for why it was "allowed" to fail, biggest just doesn't equate to being "to big to fail" as in the banking industry.

If I had been one of those drivers that just topped off the tanks I think I would have locked the doors at the pumps and walked away. I'd hope some other trucker going my way would at least drop me off somewhere close to home or arrange a tag team of drivers to get me there.
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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2009, 06:30:28 PM »

ExpressBus, if it had been me and I was close enough to Tulsa...I would have parked the truck and trailer in the CEO's front yard, or in the pool!
Let me assure you that there were driver all over the country looking for these drivers and getting them home!
Jack
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« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2009, 08:55:58 PM »

Yea !!!!  Right In The Pool Grin Grin Grin Shocked

JOHN
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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2009, 09:54:28 PM »

Arthur,

Nice of you to share that about National.  I used them all over the country at least a couple times a week.  I never had a complaint.  I now have a good reason to use them....thanks to you.

EX,

To quote the movie "Greed is GOOD". And in fact it is.  That is the motivator of those that succeed big and they make the history.  Now, that being said, I will share what a professor told be in front of a class and the nation when I answered his "what is the basic objective of any business" question.  I thought the answer was obvious: "To maximize profits".  He said "that is not correct Mr. Grabe.  The max profit in any year is realized if you work your assets into the ground, men and machine, get all the profit from your business and then sell off the business assets at the end of the year.  That would maximize your profit to the theoretical maximum."   The truth, he explained is that a business is just like a person, the ultimate drive is to survive but as a business.  That, he said, complicates all the decisions.  If the system lets you MAX your profits and sell off and THEN start a new business for the coming season then why would these guys not follow that business model?  They would and they are.

We don't like greed as the answer cause you and I ain't greedy and we actually see it as a character flaw.  It isn't really, its just an aspect we don't aspire to and having known a few.....the successful are greedy and they are not like you and I or any on this board that I can discern.  It is not laissez-faire  pure Capitolism.  After the crash of 29 the fed took a close and academic look at the system and determined that it was "UNBRIDELED GREED" that did us in.  Roosevelt implemented gobs of regs to prevent the excesses and abuses that were so attractive that even the bankers were taken in by their own hype and they too suffered catastrophically. Sound familiar? The enemy of the tycoons in industry were the unions and the unions were the watchdogs of society and the champions of the middle class for many years that saw the nation return to firm financial footing and general health.  As the unions began to be seen as the enemy of the common good and then began to falter under the onslaught of Fed reg/laws designed to defeat their purpose, then the nation began a journey on that slippery slope of decline.  The next nail in our coffin was the altering of those pesky "Capitol Gains" laws.  They actually had the entire nation believing that a 75% cap gains tax amounted to the poor investor actually paying 75% of his profits.  Cap gains tax was that portion of your income from gains that was "subject" to taxation.  If you had enough deductions then you paid whatever tax you should.  And, 25% of what you made was not subject to tax and that seems a pretty good deal as cap gains is income you did not work for or actually earn.  Why wasn't 25% of my income tax free?  Most of those that made a lot of their income off of gains were rich anyway so getting rid of CG was a boon to the already wealthy and they payed less of a share of taxes.  But as far as that trucking company was concerned, the emphasis was shifted to building a profitable long lived concern to getting it quick cause the discouraging regs to the quick buck were being relaxed.  What political force implemented the changes that put us on the right track?  Who was the guy that started the anti union stuff and abolished all the Savings and loan regs?  Who was it, on the heals of the S&L rape, that said we should do exactly the same thing for the banking industry? And who, for the luv o g..., stood up on their collective hind legs and screamed "we tried that and it led to national disaster".   Who were those guys?  And where are they now?  Many questions with those answers.

Would a discussion of the wrongs of King George that caused the revolution war be considered a political rant?   Not likely.  Most would call it patriotic.  Why is opposing criminal greed and lust after wealth considered political?  Who sets these rules?  The Founders were considered the rebel liberals of their day by most but they actually adhered to a very conservative set of values.  Finally I see people looking around and saying things that indicate, to me, that they think our nation has a severe problem.  And there is no incident in recorded history of anyone accepting a solution that didn't see that he, in fact, needed one to solve his problem.

It must be the wetbacks that did it.  SOCIALISTS! No, No, wait....it was the welfare cheats....no, it was the cursed teachers unions...and on and on.  Ever see a MOM distract a baby with a set of keys while she takes away the glasses he got a hold of?  

Thanks EX,

John
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2009, 02:50:34 AM »

I'll give you another case of GREED!
One of our drivers picked up a load in Calhoun, GA Christmas Eve, took it to Fort Mill, SC, dropped the trailer and was bob-tailing home...pulled in the scale and because he had ommitted to draw the line in his logbook showing he dropped the trailer he got a ticket.  ON CHRISTMAS EVE!
Now granted, he should have drawn the line.  But that's how greedy these perfect anuses have become!  They will write you for anything!
And they wonder why truckers have lost pretty much all respect for them!
And I realize how petty that complaint is compared to about 1,800 folks getting dumped to the curb 3 days before Christmas.
Jack
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2009, 05:51:31 AM »

I'll give you another case of GREED!
One of our drivers picked up a load in Calhoun, GA Christmas Eve, took it to Fort Mill, SC, dropped the trailer and was bob-tailing home...pulled in the scale and because he had ommitted to draw the line in his logbook showing he dropped the trailer he got a ticket.  ON CHRISTMAS EVE!
Now granted, he should have drawn the line.  But that's how greedy these perfect anuses have become!  They will write you for anything!
And they wonder why truckers have lost pretty much all respect for them!
And I realize how petty that complaint is compared to about 1,800 folks getting dumped to the curb 3 days before Christmas.
Jack

This is exactly why I no longer drive commercially.  These "hidden taxes" are crazy.  Some state is dipping into the drivers' hard earned wages and it is just wrong.  To be honest, the last several years on the road I chose to "not participate" in the BS at the scales.  As I told one scale master "There are many different ways to get from point A to point B and you can't patrol all of them.  So good luck ever finding me."  With that, I stopped crossing the scales. 
Just remember that if all motor vehicles were subject to random traffic stops and searches, that crap would be over in a hurry.
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2009, 08:23:44 AM »

Jack,

Don't think for a moment that I don't sympathize with you.  I do.  Really, I do.  Let me give you a different slant on that situation that will no let it sit easier but might leave you feeling less resentful and abused.  Those guys are not greedy.  You can look it up yourself but my Webster says it is "reprehensible acquisitiveness" and I think that just means taking for no other legitimate or acceptable reason.  The scale operators are not acquiring anything no matter how many tickets they write...nada...zip. Those schmucks that staff the scales are looking at layoffs due to state and fed bankruptcy.  The little guy, you and me, have finally cut so much waste out of the system that it is imploding.  Those scale dudes are heavy into what is called in psychology....SURVIVAL.  They are seizing every opportunity to ticket cause that will help pay them.....they think.  At any rate, they are as insecure and miffed at the system as you are.  You are both justified.   In their opinion they are needed cause they look at the forged logs and bad brakes and they know that if all employed due diligence their would be no need and the agencies would never have been created.  But they don't and they are.  They see  their absence as allowing pandemonium.  They feel that they are doing the "right" thing and acting in the public interest.

I have seen documentaries about the trucking industry prior to the advent of the Teamsters.  Drivers were maneuvered into situations, through low pay, where they were trying to drive for 24 straight hours and 16 or 18 were the norm.  Carnage was the result but profits were high.  The trucking company lobby is standing firm on the principle that the ICC and every other regulatory agency should be abolished.  Lawlessness as a policy?  And the first to suffer would be the trucker and the trucker is firmly in their camp.  Makes you wonder.  And do you think that my bills would go down if the companies could cut the wages of the truckers and not do the scheduled maint and repair they should?  Well, true wages have been falling for the past 20 years or so and I am certainly not better off and I doubt you are either.  Historians credit the Teamsters with causing much or the regs....not the Gummint seeing an opportunity to screw truckers.  Greed is everywhere and when I lived in Pa it was common knowledge that truckers kept at least TWO sets of books. 

I used to go skiing on Christmass eve and I mean I traveled then.  I drove 135 MPH in the desert and at least 100 thru riverside and north of San Diego.  395 was a ghost town, back then, at 1 am Christmass day and there was nary another car.  I prepped that car for a couple weeks for that "midnight run".  Oh to be young again and don't bother telling me it was stupid cause I knew that even then.  I passed at least three scales on that run and none were open.  Course there was no need as the roads were empty and nobody puts a guy on the road Christmass eve....even the CHP.  What a ride...Lordy what memories.  I never told my kids about that and if you squeal to my great grandchildren I will hunt you down....LOL  LOL

For many years you have been having your tax burden go up while others have had theirs go down.  Had enuf?  Are you crying Uncle Sam?  It ain't the food stamps that are killing you its the burden you have shouldered. Look around and see who is laughing....they are the enemy.   VOTE!

Only cause it is Christmass Jack, only cause it is,

John
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2009, 12:09:25 PM »

Trucktramp,

I stopped crossing the scales.  
Just remember that if all motor vehicles were subject to random traffic stops and searches, that crap would be over in a hurry.


If you can legally avoid a scale there is no moral reason to get weighed.  The upper 1% employ people to find ways for them to "avoid" paying taxes Angry, sooo your cool. Cool

Almost always there is a reason that a Gummint agency keeps a program alive.  Write your congressman and ask how much the stops yield in terms of violations and maybe a safety dividend.  If it turns out to be zero you can ask your rep what he is doing to halt this wasteful Gummint practice.  Be active!  Did you know that your Senator is required by law to acknowledge receipt of a letter from you with 48 hrs.?  True factoid amigo.  I have written scads of letter and each one was answered with 2 months with the info I requested and I got my ack a few days after posting my letter.  The staff that Your Rep and Senator employ are paid for by you to answer your questions.  Ask and you shall receive.  That does not include the Senator from Orygun named Smith.....from Smith Frozen Foods.  He never answered any of the three letters I sent him and I was told he didn't answer communication from people registered as independents or democrats...I am Independent.  I worked my 67 year old tail off to unseat him this past election and it worked.  Jeff Merkel answers my mail and he does not check party affiliation.  Go Jeff.  I live on a very busy corner and we don't usually post political stuff but you would have thought we were campaign headquarters this past go around.  Those people that tell you your vote doesn't matter want you to just shut up and take it in the shorts.  You matter...or at least you should.

I listened to a small business owner rant the other day.  He lives in a "nice" house in a "nice" part of town but not the Ritz. He drives one of those Lincoln SUV's that insure you are going to hell for conspicuous consumption or pollution either one.  He lamented that his Daddy had worked a "job" as a foreman in a mill and was middle class.  Had a respectable home on a few acres and raised 5 kids.  Four of the kids went to college and two went to private schools.  His Mom did not work....ever.  Stayed home and took care of babies and Daddy.  This guy was just so disgusted with Gummint and those "cursed taxes".  I listened to him rant about not having the funds to sent his three kids even to the State College or take family vacations for a couple weeks every year.  He was ticked at the Gummint.  After a half hour I asked him if he could somehow escape paying any tax at all could his wife quit work and would he be able to enjoy the life his Daddy did and be the provider he had been.  He thought for a long while and you could hear the wheels turning and cranking.  Finally, after a long silence, he looked up at me wide eyed eyed and said "No, no I could not live anywhere near as well as he did".  My question was " so who is it that sent you on this wild goose chase seeking a solution that isn't one?" .

He didn't answer but I think the point stuck.  It isn't your enemy that gets you it is those rats that pretend to be your friend.

My point?  Pay your tax and expect value.   I didn't ask that college educated guy what his position would improve to if we could just get a handle on the "illegal situation".

Happy new year,

John
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 12:12:42 PM by JohnEd » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2009, 12:59:24 PM »

I have never been a professional driver, but my dad was.  They may have changed the rules but at one time you could run your log book up to 8 hours behind.  If you were stopped ( and knew the rules well enough to call them on it ) you could be forced to catch the log book up before they had to let you move, but they couldnt ticket you just because you were behind. 

Obviously this is not something DOT will spontaniously tell you.  So my question becomes, is this the rule still or has it changed?

Frank
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2009, 01:29:04 PM »

To keep this on topic, allow me to make this comment; just as I am ranting about the BS ticket my buddy got...it is ashamed a company is able to just up and go out of business and leave that many folks stranded.  I don't know what the answer is...

JohnEd, you are pretty much right on...the highway patrol here and everywhere else is in a survival mode...and will write a ticket for everything!

We have fired thousands of teachers here in North Carolina.  Not one cop!  (I am not advocating firing anyone...just making a statement!)

Later I will tell you what really fired me up about this!
Jack
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2009, 01:40:30 PM »

Frank,

The regulation is that your logbook must be current to your last change of duty status. So, if you've driven for 8 hours without stopping, you'd be legal. But you'd probably be subjected to the "fatigued driver checklist".

Bob
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2009, 01:49:57 PM »

hold on a minute, we demand more regulation for the bandit financial industry...

And want it removed for the bandit transportation industry?

Regulations were put in place over the years due to MASSIVE issues to do with public safety.

Whether stock broker, bank teller or truck driver, we would all either profit or be victimized, with a relaxation of "rules" that are intended to keep the playing field somewhat level.

Or something complicated like that...

happy coaching!
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2009, 03:09:47 PM »

Makes me want to go out and buy a truck,bus or a car made by Daimler they are the ones that caused this don't put all the blame on Arrow they were trying to survive a bad deal from one of their customers owing them millions that when bankrupt.
Talking with a friend of mine at Swift you will see less FreightLiners in Swifts fleet after this deal according to him Jerry is upset about the way Daimler handled this.
I hope China don't call our loans and we can not pay our fuel bills


good luck
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2009, 06:23:12 PM »

Jack,

I was relieved to read your post.  You sound like you have a good grip on the situation despite your frustration.  I share that frustration.  And I would hang with the friend....figuratively in this case.

Not one cop!  You will actually see the police forces augmented as things get worse.  A hungry man is unpredictable and a possible threat to the public order....read that as "rich guys".  A man with hungry children is entirely predictable and is or soon will be a threat to the "haves".  Read that as public order.  And the worse it gets the more inhumane and brutal the law enforcement will become.  Remember the blacks that tried to cross a bridge out of New Orleans and walk down a highway?  Police and residents with rifles turned them back into New Orleans and that pandemonium. Those people only wanted to pass thru that parish and public order said that if they tried to escape they would be killed.  Nobody punched anybody in that confrontation or even raised a hand.  Lock and load....that happened.

Please share what you held back.  Maybe not on this board if you prefer.  My email is listed and there is always PM.

John 
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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