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Author Topic: picking a paint color  (Read 5165 times)
bryanhes
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 07:19:44 PM »

Crown,

I thought you were going to cut holes after painting. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It would be best to have the holes cut before pianting.

I am kind of anal and usually take more steps than some but I will typically sand down to bare metal, fix any imperfections either by using a body hammer and dolly if I can get to both sides (in the case of a bus that would be tuff) or if it is small ding, a little filler.

I will use a dual action air sander with 320 grit paper to begin with. Once things are sanded properly mask off what you do not want primer or paint on.  
You could just sand things down and feather out any peeling areas but I have had the old paint lift when I started to prime. Then you have to start all over. It is a crap shoot on whether it will or not. If it were me I would check into hiring some cheap labor to sand it down. Or better yet check with a local Vo-tech school to sand it down for you.

Check out MAXX FILL 2K: http://www.autobodybrands.com/primers/fliers/5451.pdf
It is a high build urethane primer surfacer. I have a friend that uses it in his body shop and seems to like it really well. I have a quart that I planned on using on my sons camaro but have not gotten to it yet.  It is supposed to be a fast drying,high build (will fill small imperfections in the substrate), easy sanding properties and can be top-coated with anypaint system. Works good on aluminum, steel, fiberglass and iron. Urethane primers are more flexible.
Just stay away from Polyester primers as they are more porous and should only be dry sanded.

Sealers aren't necessarily required; many surfacers do double duty as sealer and surfacer. But it's a good insurance policy to help prevent things from going wrong, like solvents moving down from the topcoats to the metal. Sealers also help against stone chipping, cracking, crazing, and they help hold the top coats to undercoats. The MAXX FILL 2K should accomplish this.

Once the primer is dry you will want to give it a light sanding with anything from 400-600 grit by hand. Just make the surface smooth and use a sanding board to help with keeping things straight.

I hope this is enough to get you started

Bryan
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 07:25:51 PM by bryanhes » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2010, 10:28:35 PM »

Bryan,

Sure it helps.  It certainly adds to the depth of my, and everybody else's, knowledge on the subject.  I don't think that i knew any of what you said. Thanks for that.  You seem to be pretty much the horses mouth on the subject and we should all benefit from that.  

You didn't mention my advocating spraying outside?  Please do.  I have been called an idiot over that many times and both of my jobs came out like they were shot by a pro in a booth and my eye sight was 20 20 at the time  I have alligator hide on the issue and I can't wait to do another but will hire the labor the next time.

It is curious that you would mention that there never was a UV booster for Emron.  That guy painted three cars of mine and two were with Acrylic Enamel and one was Emron.  He screwed with me on the last job on quality and billing.  He also double billed my insurance company and when caught insisted I had colluded with him, a black lie,  His major mistake was telling me "F### you!  If you don't give me another $500 dollars", that after it was proven he double billed, "you will need an attorney to get your car back".  My attorney, a close friend that handled my light work as a favor, said leave the car with him and we will bill him $35 dollars a day towards a leased Porsche.  Deal!  I sued him, his wife, his foreman(he got me to use that shop against my instinct), his silent partner and even a guy that was going to invest in the shop.  He was bankrupted, blackballed by the insurance coop group, divorced, lost un escorted visits with his son and prosecuted on drug distribution charges after the damages case settled and humiliated beyond tears in a courtroom.  Not that I want to give him any credit at all but I think that was the last time he told a grown man to "get an attorney".  He was the one that charged me for the uv additive and I watched him pour in those little vials.  So even though I watched a crook and it was in the late seventies, I won't bet much on it.  If anything at all.  Not even what he actually poured in that bucket.  Now honestly, I had forgotten all about that dark incident in my life cause I always forget about it after I get my revenge.  But you said....

Sorry if I rambled on.  Its that I only have that one single "paint shop War Story".

I hope to hear more from you on the painting side.

Thanks,

John

« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 10:30:30 PM by JohnEd » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2010, 11:10:26 PM »

Crown,

Bryan and I are going to disagree on a couple of things. 

First is that the factory paint is "the best" you will find and if you can keep it as an under layment you will get a better job.  Maybe bus' are different from auto but I think both used high quality stuff.  That stuff about "taking her down to bare metal" is rarely the way to go but my info is dated and I am disagreeing with a guy with experience.

Second.  IF YOU HAVE ALUMINUM EXPOSED YOU MUST TAKE CARE TO TREAT IT.   Sorry to yell but I have seen the aftermath of leaving out this step and it is a heart breaker.  PP makes the good stuff and it requires a cleaner stage, treatment and then a sealer stage.  It cost like the dickens and was a pain.  Cannot be skipped or corner cut.

Three.  That "high body primer" adds up to you paint the vehicle an extra time and you need a booth. I used it once and it amounted to the absolute most work I did on the SUV.  Every time you paint you "make" a ton of dust as overspray.  I found that after I applied the primer I had to take all the masking off and WASH THE CAR.  Pressure wash if you can.  Have to get rid of the dust or else when you hit it with the gun a cloud of dust rises no matter how many times you "blew it off".  That high body stuff means that you must sand the entire vehicle all over and you end up with a thicker coat of paint.  As Bryan pointed out that single stage enamel is thick and you can't just keep painting coats.  If you have a bunch of coats up on the roof I would sand the top two layers or so and leave the original.  And don't forget to treat any aluminum showing.  Personally I wouldn't do anything but sand it with 320 if there are less than 4 coats and they look stable.  Use what is called "primer sealer" which is a semi gloss finish and doesn't require sanding.  It will undoubtedly show up bad sections so you will go back to sanding and treating and masking and sealing/primer application.  Tell thew shop that you need a sealer that will sand up to Poly urethane PURE WHITE.  Ask if there are any additives you should consider.  If you paint outside the roof will be rough with dust....nobody sees that.  Pure white will last the longest and reflect the most heat and hide imperfections like no other color.   Your sealer MUST keep the Poly chemicals away from the under paint or the old stuff will crinkle horribly.  Use it and no problem.

If you cut thru the painted roof you need to treat the exposed metal edges of the hole....or at least I would but I am gun shy having seen a perfectly horrific paint job from painting bare aluminum.  IT starts to bubble over here and travels to way over there in just a few months.  Easy fix with going back to bare metal and proper prep.  Easy fix.

This is a more fun trip than I may be impressing you.  If you don't blunder you end up with a really grand do it yourself achievement.

As I said... Bryan has all; the cred on this topic.  I only have anecdotal stuff I learned the hard way.  They didn't have this board back then.

Still love yous guys,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
crown
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 05:25:49 AM »

 once again thanks i need all the help i can get . as for the roof it has only the factory paint in good shape
 as for the sides i used fiberglass so i will be painting alum.& fiberglass getting back to the roof is it ok to
 prep and paint only the roof now. and the rest of bus say in june ? crown
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john
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2010, 07:27:31 AM »

That's about as lipstick red as you can get!  Hope you're not shy!  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
bryanhes
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2010, 07:34:50 AM »

John & Crown,

Quote
First is that the factory paint is "the best" you will find and if you can keep it as an under layment you will get a better job.  Maybe bus' are different from auto but I think both used high quality stuff.

I would disagree John that factory is "the best". Depending on the age of the bus it probably an enamel paint. If so it may lift around the edges sometimes when applying Urethane primer but can be worked with.

Keep in mind that the work I have done was on either classic cars or motorcycles and some newer cars. I prefered to take things down to the metal to evaluate any previous body work, bondo, etc.. I have never touched a bus but would assume that all paint used was the same in the auto industry. I would probably not try to take the bus down to metal. Just as John said take it down slightly to give a good bonding surface.

When it comes to primers the reason I mentioned the MAXX FILL is that it fills very good. It does make for more work but I think gives you a better finished product. Like I said I am used to trying to make things perfect and as arrow straight on the old classics. A good primer/sealer will work fine as well. In speaking of aluminum I have not done any painting on aluminum but believe what you need to use is a Zinc Chromate; this has corrosion inhibiting properties to retard the corrosion process and gives a better bite for the primer as it has an etching effect I believe. The lighter the primer color the easier it usually is to cover.


There are numerous ways you can approach this and I am sure Johns way would work as well as mine. There are many different opinions in painting products as well depending on the shop you talk to. Some like PPG, some like SW, and some like House of Color for really custom stuff.

As for painting outside I have done it many times. As John said as well, make sure the area around what you are painting is sprayed down with water. Preferably do it in the early part of the morning while the dew is still fresh and it should be fine and make sure it is very calm (no wind at all). Also depends on how bad bugs are in your area. I have had to cut several bugs legs off after they got stuck in the paint  Roll Eyes

John you have good points as well.

Bryan
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bryanhes
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2010, 07:42:23 AM »

John,

I was not saying there never was some sort of additive someone promoted. I nor the man that owns the paint store has ever heard of it as Uv protectants have been in the pigments for some time. He has been painting since the 60's. Maybe it was "Snake Oil", LOL  Cheesy Grin And thats what he was double billing for.  Grin

Bryan
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2010, 10:58:27 AM »

Bryan,

Maybe it was "Snake Oil", LOL    And that's what he was double billing forMaybe it was "Snake Oil", LOL    And that's what he was double billing for

My point exactly.  He was a bad dude deep down inside and he hurt a lot of people as I finally became aware.  One of his tricks was to add a little "BLACK" to the product, regardless of its tint/color. to make it unique and NOT what the can code said.  If you tried to repair a spot ad used the code you got a light spot unmatch.  He did that for his own amusement.  He did worse to people he knew and I am sure I don't have the full story.  Well, I did my part for the S Cal consumer cause his ever getting another licence was remote.

Zinc Chromate is the absolute best.  The Navy paints their airframes with the stuff and it holds up for tens of years till the plane dies of old age.  Nothing better that I have ever heard of.  Big problem with that stuff, however.  It is lethal to the sprayer in some circumstances and I was told it outgass' and has to stay in the booth for a while and the blowers MUST stay on.  Usually they are turned off at the finish of application to avoid dust introduction when the doors are opened to exit and then enter again.  This all started down in Kalifornia and you darn well know what they call those people.  "More cancer free than other places in the country" is one of the things those nuts are called.  I don't think you can even purchase it.  The booth must be equipped with a certified fresh air supply that operates independent of other circuits...fuzzy on that code but picked up on conversations around the Airframe repair and rebuilding facility and I wasn't there much.  Beside, sailors lie.

it may lift around the edges

Can't say that too loud or often.  Primer sealer.  Talk to the vendor AND some "Shooters".  Did you know that there are people in your community that "only" shoot paint? The shops use them when they have a really special high dollar job.  Now those guys know what is what between the products and you should consider having one of them shoot your bus when the time comes. 

Bryan,

I knew you were cut from the custom cloth when I read "high body primer".  I used that stuff on parts of my Z when I had it painted.  Misted the primer with black spray paint and then "blocked" the section to perfection.  Needed shot three times with primer before it was flat and ready for sealer.  Not the norm and yes, I was anal about it too....for that car.  The things we will do for Baby, right?

Thank you for your professional opinions and for being concerned about "feelings".  Lots of false impressions can be made in this "flat" medium.  Hope to hear from you often and long..you are paying it forward.

Good luck and best wishes,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
bryanhes
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2010, 11:39:18 AM »

John,

Thanks for the compliment but I am not sure I would take my opinion as the "horses mouth"  Shocked. Maybe a little more experience in this area than some but it is what has worked for me. Your experience can be of benefit as much as mine to someone that does not know where to start.
 
Unfortunately most of us have dealt with crooks of that nature at some point in life  Angry But what do you do? Learn your lesson and move on.

I have never used the Zinc Chromate but did read about it and have been around conversations regarding its uses. Maybe if you were to use it outside and still use a good respirator it would be OK. But I again have never used it and would be best to talk to someone who had about dangers of use.

You can definitely get a nice finish with the "high body primers". And doing what you did with black spray paint or red will help accentuate areas that need additional work (for those that did not know why he was spraying black paint over the primer to sand again).
The black may be a little better than red simply because the darker the color the more imperfections become visible to try to make for a perfect as possible repair. They do sell a product just for this but it is more expensive than just spraying some spray can paint. Although it sands off a little easier.


Quote
Thank you for your professional opinions and for being concerned about "feelings".  Lots of false impressions can be made in this "flat" medium.

I think each of us have something we can share based upon our experiences. To NOT take into consideration someone elses opinion on a particular subject that they have knowledge on as well is short sighted. What works for some may not work for everyone. But at least it is another point of view that may not have been considered by the other. I have been on this board for several months now and there are some pretty smart cookies here  Grin with years of experience, which is why I check to see whats going on about every day. I know I have learned allot and feel I have had the crash course on busses and their systems. I appreciate the help I get from everyone involved and when I feel I am knowledgeable enough on a subject I will chime in if I think I can help. Or maybe give someone a hard time. But always in fun  Grin. It is a flat medium and is tough to read someones body language through the internet, unless we had live video cam's, LOL!


Take Care John. I look forward to more discussions in the future  Grin  

Crown, I hope this gets you going.

Bryan
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 11:40:49 AM by bryanhes » Logged
crown
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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2010, 03:36:30 PM »

 john and bryan very helpfull imfo i need to go to paint store and learn more before i jump in
 would it be ok when the time comes to paint to e mail you if i run in to trouble or need more advice
 thanks crown
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john
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bryanhes
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2010, 03:51:15 PM »

Crown,

That would be fine. Happy to help any way I can. A knowledgeable guy at a paint store should be able to give good advice. Most do paint work on there own as well. There are always new products becoming available that John or I may not be aware of.

Good luck,
Bryan
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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2010, 04:25:06 PM »

All very good advice.

I just want to add from my own experience. I used single stage when I painted our coach, wrong move. Like has been said, you could have runs, shoot too dry and a host of other issues. If you have lots of experience shooting that's another issue. If not use BC/CC, much easier to use and get rid of mistakes. I'm no painter, so you are getting good advice, just thoughts from my own failed work on a huge canvas. One more thing, paint it in stages, one side at a time. It's a lot of work no matter how you look at it. Wink

Have fun and let us know how it turned out.

Paul
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crown
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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2010, 06:34:35 PM »

 hi paul the deal i got was for 14 1/2 gallons of red single stage paint for $ 185.oo so thats what i will be using
 hopeing for the best if there is a screw up i got a lot of paint to fix it thanks and will keep all up to date
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john
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cody
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2010, 06:47:01 PM »

Use a good quality brush lol
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crown
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2010, 05:13:21 AM »

 cody what type of brush would you use my guess a 6 '' wide one. ha
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john
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