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Author Topic: Pictures of the blower and the broken impeller blade from my turbo  (Read 4107 times)
RickB
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« on: January 09, 2010, 03:40:45 PM »

Hey everyone,

Pulled the turbo and manifold and got a good look at the blower today. Also pulled the valve covers evrything looked great in the heads, still wet with oil, no rust, the rack rod wasn't frozen. Happy. Used a breaker bar on the crankshaft bolt and the motor is not froze up.

Here's the part that concerned me. The blower vanes had oil on them, no major nicks, didn't turn the motor enough to see them entirely. But here is the main issue, there was caked oil on the manifold but none in the intake tube from the turbo but the actual top of the blower had alot of built up sludge that I am hoping does not have dirt in it. When we pulled the motor the large diameter rubber intake hose just kind of came apart as we tried to take it off it was definitely dry rotted so if that thing was like that when the motor ran there is a good chance it sucked alot of dust directly into the intake. So, judging from the pix are the more experienced among us willing to comment? Is that kind of buildup normal for bad blower seals. The turbo didn't seem like it had dumped a bunch because the rubber intake was clean

There are also a couple pictures of the broken impeller blade. I saw know evidence that the piece went through the blower but I didn't see all side os the blower vanes.









Thanks for the help I really appreciate it.

Rick







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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2010, 03:48:05 PM »

don't look good Rick pull the blower and look at the after cooler then pull the aftercooler and take a look  inside the air box not looking good for you sorry to say

good luck
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RickB
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 03:52:39 PM »

Clifford,

not looking good like inframe kit or not looking good junk? I always knew that it may need to be rebuilt but is there more to this than a rebuild?
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 04:32:39 PM »

Rick, you may not even have dirt on the other side.
I hope that is just build up from setting, as long as the crank and heads are ok a inframe will do good but I always replace the blower even on a inframe.


good luck
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RickB
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 04:46:09 PM »

Clifford

I had kinda hoped that this thing would be a turnkey but I had a hunch when we got to N.C. to pull it that this motor was gonna need some work and $ it is safe to say I had my doubts.

I got it reasonable enough that even with an inframe kit, blower, and turbo  I still think it's a good deal. I am also considering having the heads gone through as well. It would be so nice to rest easy knowing that everything that needs replacing is replaced.

BTW I am interested in those parts we discussed in last weeks posts how do we proceed?

Let me know and thanks for your guidance and help Clifford you are so valuable to this board my friend...

Rick
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2010, 04:52:50 PM »

Wow It's a wonder it still ran. The turbo with the broken blades would take out the turbo bushings pretty quick. It looks like its been sucking dirt and what have you in for a while. I bet if you take the blower off the intercooler is almost plugged. Definite overhaul material. OUCH!! One good thing is the cranks are tough.

Good luck, you'll need it.   Gerry
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BUR
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 05:17:09 PM »

      Rick   My engine let me down on a trip a year and a half ago. It was a stressful time, I knew it would happen at some point but there is never a good a time. So I bit the bullet an had half of the engine rebuilt in Salt Lake, brought in home and had the other half bebuilt (time constrands of the trip). I wasn't happy about how much money it cost me, but I am very glad i had it bebuilt, I can drive down the road now and not worry about when it will leave on the side of the road in God forsaken place. (not saying that Murphy won't strike) So keep your chin up and enjoy after the rebuild.     Happy Bus'n   Bur
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 10:20:50 AM »

Good morning all,

Is there any chance that the residue on the top of my blower is coked oil without dirt?? Haveany of you ever encountered anything that looked like this that wasn't dirt?

Don and Tom C I would appreciate your input on this. Just trying to get to the bottom of what this stuff is that's on the top of my blower.

Thanks in advance,

Rick
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 10:33:08 AM »

Did you say the air cleaner on the donor truck was oil bath?
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 11:11:53 AM »

Rick, that engine has never ran with the build up on the rotors the clearance is so close that a business card will lock one up off the engine.   


good luck
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RickB
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 11:49:34 AM »

Gumpy,

It had a dry element filter that looks almost new. I am not real sure what the remote mounted assembly was the motor has a spin on oil filter and it could have been an extra oil filter.

Clifford, I was able to turn the motor over with a beaker bar and the rotors of the blower turned when I did that so they don't appear to be locked up.

The gunk you see on them in the pictures is more like a stain than actual buildup I couldn't even feel it when I touched the rotors.

The reason this is troubling me is that although in all likelihood there was a tear in the intake 90 degree rubber intake elbow that allowed dirt to come into contact with oil (and if that's the case I'll order a inframe kit) but I remember seeing deposits like these  inside the valve covers of gas engines more than once in my younger days. There was certainly no opportunity for dirt to enter those valve covers and my assumption was that this must just be a by product of oil that has been heated and cooled over years and it became what we might refer to as oil sludge. Couple that with a few years sitting around in the heat of summer I am questioning whether or not it could just be crusty dried up oil. Not a dirt and oil combination, that's why input from someone who has seen this condition before would be so helpful, that doesn't mean I'm not grateful for the advice I'm getting, I am.

I am hoping my mechanic will say yeah we've seen this before and here's what we know this crusty brown stuff is.

I can't really lose either way because I bought the motor at such a reasonable price.

Rick




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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 04:17:00 PM »

Rick;

How many documented miles are on this engine.   IF you had a tear in the intake boot you would pull all sorts of dirt and debris into the turbo/blower and engine.    It doesn't take much to "dust" your engine..   The damage to your compressor wheel was very recent.    You have been pushing thru the front compressor side seal for awhile.   The brown staining tells us that.

Pull a head off and do some inspecting.   Head gasket kits are cheap.   Allows you to pull vacuum on your valves and check your coppers.

It would be sad to do all the work of installing it to have to take it back out, or worse...
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RickB
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 04:54:57 PM »

Zeroclearance,

Thanks for the input the truck had 66K on it. Does it matter that the turbo spins perfectly?

Also, are you saying that the staining could have been caused by oil without debris/dirt Huh The oil on the inside of the blower intake/turbo mount seems to have come from the blower vanes up as the actual inside of the intake manifold was quite clean from the turbo to the last part of the manifold. That was why I leaned towards blower seals and away from turbo seals. It just eludes me why the turbo inlet isn't dirtier if the intake boot was allowing unfiltered air into the motor.

Whether or not coked sludge is capable of looking like these pictures without dirt/contamination seems to be the 5-10 thousand dollar question. LOL! I have spent too much time today researching different types of sludge and their respective causes and it still seems a toss up. Some oil sludge buildup is caused by water mixing with oil, some from idling too long, some from operating too hot, some from too cold, some with dirt and some with antifreeze. Kind of a brain freeze for me...

What kind of charge for a rebuilt turbo? Anyplace you recommend?

I am planning on pulling the blower over the next week but I can't do it until I can get the motor pressure washed there's too much caked on junk on the motor to risk contaminating it even more than it possibly is now. Isn't it funny that everyone on ebay always takes a picture of the parts that aren't caked with greasy junk? I certainly didn't expect this motor to be as dirty as it is. Dump truck/ heavy equipment folks don't seem to mind that stuff as much as bus nuts do.

zero, why did you ask about the mileage?  Also, what are the black circular marks on the intake housing of the compressor side?

Thanks for your help... I appreciate it

Rick
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2010, 03:33:27 PM »

Rick;

Sorry but that thing looks dusted out to me. You need to change the compressor wheel.

You say you are going to rebuild it so pull the heads drop pan and remove the kits. Have the head pressure tested and rebuilt. Put it new kits and main and rod bearings with new thrusts as well as new relief and regulator valves. Have the water pump rebuilt. If it were mine I would pull the flywheel housing and go all the way to the block. it is far less expensive to change gaskets now and stop oil leaks as apposed to after it is installed in the bus.

If you need any thing else call me 88847three three626

Don
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 04:36:00 PM »

Well Rick, you have the best in the business on it now. Thanks Don for you input and offer to help.
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RickB
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 06:12:45 PM »

I have really really good news! I pulled the airbox port covers and checked the rings and cylinders and the compression ring looked new! the crosshatching on the cylinder walls was perfect.

I am beginning to believe that 66K is the actual mileage.

So, I got brave took off my gloves and grabbed a pinch of that residue on the blower and it had absolutely no dirt in it. It is just cooked oil. The more that I looked at it the more clear it became that the blower seals failed badly spilling oil onto the rotor vanes and then was deposited UP on the manifold cover. That's why the tube from the turbo to the blower was clean. There was no metal or cracked rings in any of the airbox port covers.

I am not out of the woods completely yet because the blower needs rebuilding and the turbo compressor blade is still unaccounted for but I have high hopes for the bottom end of the motor and I expect to have it running next week. I am keeping my eye on ebay for one of those awesome deals on reliabilt or new turbo's and blowers but if not my mechanic said he can do the compressor for around $400 and I will probably do the blower myself if I can find the time!
I'm feeling alot better than the last post I can assure you of that!

Don, I am so grateful that you took the time to help me out and by the looks of the pictures I thought that it was dirt too but a tech guy from Rotella today reminded me that many things cause sludge and that I wouldn't really know until I grabbed some of it between my fingers and rubbed it around.

I am going to see if I can get enough oil out of the pan for an oil analysis just to be sure. You can bet your bottom dollar I am gonna be curious as to the silica ppm!!!

Grateful for all the input,
Rick
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 06:35:17 PM »

Rick,  I asked about the mileage because the turbocharger has been rode hard!!   I was trying to get the facts before I told you that it looks dusted.   Don came out and told you what I was seeing on the compressor wheel.   Yes, there are worse cases out there.   

You have wrote a couple of times about finding the compressor wheel blade in your oil pan.   There is really no chance of it getting there.   The more likely path is thru the blower and into the combustion chamber and out one cylinder, hopefully it passes thru your exhaust valves.     But as it is in a molten blog by now it would have now made contact with some of the blade tips on your turbine wheel.  Sean posted pictures of his turbine wheel.   It's hard to say how bad it is...

Dusting a engine usually wipes out the ringset.   It will be very polished.   Looking at the "X" hatch won't give you the "true" condition..

You might really consider pulling off one head, and pulling one hole down and looking at the ring pack.   YEARS ago I would send the ringset to Clevite/Perfect Circle warranty department and they would give me there opinion...   You could ring the pistons and install new liners if the pistons were up to spec.   I''m not trying to spend your money for you but the dirt and debris will take it's toll on the ringset..   When it comes to 2 cycle engines there are better people out that can offer you there advice.   

How does the exhaust manifolds look??   I am asking that to see if the oil consumption is up there..    You don't want to be checking your fuel gauge and filling the engine with oil every 500 miles.
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 06:46:00 PM »

Rick, can you post the number on the blower the 8V92 uses 3 different blowers and they like the high capacity blower or as some say the 100% blower and I would upgrade to a TV 8511 turbo. 
I would exchange the blower if it were me
Check the rack 8v92's are not like the old 71 series the rack will move with the injectors stuck.
I happy for you now I need your zip code for a shipping quote.  



good luck and keep smiling
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RickB
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 07:23:01 PM »

Clifford,

The stamp mark on the blower was kind of hard to read buf it is the same number as the stamped number on the blower intake is # 8924250. I will check into the turbo upgrade. It seems reasonable to pay a little more and exchange the blower like you said so I will heed your advice. My zip is 55109

Zero clearance,

I have to totally go with you on the turbo because they are more of a "science" than my mind is capable of understanding deeply and I certainly see you know these things like the back of your hand. I am hoping that the event that caused that turbo to become damaged was exactly like you described with as little damage as possible. In answer to your question, the exhaust side of the turbo is black but there doesn''t seem to be alot of unburned fuel or oil there.

The exhaust manifold looked really good black, sooty but not oily at all as well. The rings and the cylinders looked really great, the line on the middle of the compression ring was visible from a foot and a half away from the motor.I have an awesome running 8V71 that doesn't look as good as this did. Very little build up in the airbox port caps and virtually no oil in the exhaust port overall.

I an fully prepared to be wrong on this but my discussion with the Rotella rep today really made me think about the various causes of sludge and the varied appearance of sludge. He made it clear to me that the appearance of dirt in the pictures (I emailed the pictures to him of the blower) was not proof that it was a dirt/oil mixture. Regardless, my mechanic will be getting it at his shop in a day or two so he can look at it. He understands we travel long distances in this bus and that we are far more vulnerable in a breakdown situation than a local driver working for a company with tow trucks and a service dept. I have to trust that he is as good as he has proven himself to be in my experiences with him working on my current motor. He was the one that stressed the appearance of the cylinders and rings to me as being more important in the scheme of things than the blower or turbo.

Well, we shall see fellas but I have a good feeling about this.... That's probably just my fear of a rebuild and the$ it will cost if I have to bite the bullet. My mechanic said around 8K to do the inframe, heads, blower and turbo.

I was fine after wifey brought out the smelling salts... LOL

Once again thanks for the imput and please keep it coming, I really do appreciate the combined experience of this board alot!

Rick
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RickB
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 07:36:05 PM »

Zeroclearance,

I know you and Don know a beat to death turbo when you see one so I am assuming that this is one beat turbo but why does this thing spin like a new one? Have you ever encountered one that looked like this and would still spin perfectly? I checked the exhaust and compressor side for marks on the housing and there was nothing up there that my untrained eye could see.

Honestly, the thing spins without any wobble and almost inperceptable end play.

Is it just that my idea of great spinning doesn't match the tight tolerances these high rpm monsters need to do there job?

Zero, I think I speak for most of the board when I say we have all heard the backyard assumptions of how many rpm's these things actually spin at so what do they really spin at in a 475 HP 8V92?

Thanks for your help,

Rick
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2010, 11:46:36 PM »

Rick,  it would be foolish for me to condemn your entire turbocharger.   However,  at the very least you need a compressor wheel and a rebuild.   I would also strongly lean in favor of FOD blade tip damage on the turbine side>blade tips.    When you add those components up you are going to be quickly at around $500 in parts plus the rebuild cost.   Without removing the turbine housing it is very hard to inspect the blade tips for erosion.   

Clifford has a excellent suggestion to upgrading to the TV85 series turbo.   There are some hybrid "hot rod" turbo combinations that have been built to speed up the shaft speed and thus create more boost "sooner" vs later...

If one "Google" compressor wheel maps> you can quickly see the RPM range that many of these turbochargers will spin.   If you drive a Cummin's pickup the larger hybrid turbochargers will spin up to 95,000 RPM's..    The turbochargers that I make my "living" on will spin up to 185,000 to 190,000 RPM in a twin turbo application.   At idle a TV8101 will turning 9500RPM's and 15K on high idle..    There is some good data coming out from the new engine manufacturers that are running variable vane turbochargers.   The turbochargers have speed sensors that will give you data in real time.     The biggest fear for a turbocharger manufacture or builder is having your customer going over the mountain pass at full boost.   FYI many hybrid turbochargers built for auto racing have "used" the larger two cycle compressor wheels...
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 05:08:23 AM »

That is not the blower # Rick 


good luck
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2010, 05:29:56 AM »

looking at picture and edges of break...I would consider a mechanical hit rather than metal fatique ....the destorted blade along with the broken blade.....also seems to be old break,maybe even run like that for a long time? I'm ashamed to tell how I know this but lets just say oop's..I"m sure I'm wrong in a perfect world..I have no expertise in area..possible?
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2010, 07:09:30 AM »

Clifford,

The blower assembly part# is R8923954

I'll try to make a call today to see if that is a 100% bypass blower.

Robert,

I'm not sure how it broke or when it broke but it is most seriously broke.LOL!


Thanks,

Rick
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