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Author Topic: UPDATE 2/17: Shepherd Engine Saga Continues - third drive - about the same  (Read 12642 times)
Just Dallas
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 04:14:51 PM »

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 01:49:18 PM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 04:28:12 PM »

Sean, I have an electric pump connected to my auxiliary tank and plumbed into the fuel filter (with valves).  I can use that to test fuel flow if tomorrows test still shows low boost.  You are correct, that is GPH!  That was only bliping the throttle as opposed to having the engine under load.

Dallas, your explanation is what I thought happened with the boost and ECM.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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DaveG
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 04:35:33 PM »

Tommorrow...let's go for a test drive TONIGHT!
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RTS/Daytona
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 04:53:34 PM »

a 6v92TA Pumps about 62 gallons per hour at full load and max rpms  (8v92 even more ??)

that's about gallon per minute

about 90% is returned to the fuel tank  (spill rate for a D/D is very very high)

The rate you see on the SilverLeaf is a calculated COMSUMPTION rate based on injector open/close timings - very accurate but NOT a true flow rate


10 MPG @ 60 mph  = 6 gph (consumption) @ 60 MPH
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 04:58:19 PM by RTS/Daytona » Logged

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paul102a3
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 05:21:18 PM »

I can't speak to the 60 series but my 8V92 DDEC has a hose from the turbo to a sensor located next to the blower housing. When I took my bus in for a chassis dyno test, I was only making about 212 HP when it was supposed to be around 325 (the DDEC is set for 400HP). It turns out the hose was cracked and the sensor was not receiving the boost from the turbo.

The tech said the DDEC uses the boost sensor to adjust the fuel flow to the injectors. I my case, boost was almost none existant so not much fuel so no HP.

Replaced the hose and the output went to 325 HP at the rear wheels.

As I said, I have no idea if the 60 has this setup but it may be worth a look.

Paul

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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2010, 05:08:55 AM »

Jim, may be a dumb ? but why did you remove the waste gate turbo they are a better turbo my understanding it will give a higher boost at lower rpms and helps save the engine at higher rpm with less boost.
It also was told to me the waste gate on a series 60 also helps with the top end problems associated with the 60

good luck
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 05:28:19 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2010, 07:21:07 AM »

Clifford, there were three factors that went into my decision.  First, the waste gate shaft was "frozen".  The "can" had a ton of oil in it and I did not think that was a good sign.  Lastly, when I installed the first Series 60 engine I used a rebuilt turbo, so that turbo only has 53K miles on it. 

At some later point, I might have the waste gate turbo reconditioned, but I simply did not have the resources to deal with that turbo at this time.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2010, 07:28:37 AM »

That explains that part Jim, but bring it to Quartzsite I have friend in Havasu I'll have him repair it for you for the old 6v92 you have in your way. 
Forgot to tell you 
Sonja said if Pat does not want to stay in the motel we will bring our van and you and Pat can have the bus and we will use the van

good luck
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 07:34:58 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2010, 10:43:31 AM »

Clifford, what a very special offer!!!  A person could not ask for a better friend!  We are locked into the motel (two week cancellation policy during the Big Tent) and we will be comfortable over there.

Well, I just made the loop (2 miles) and went in the direction with the long steady pull.  Still only got about 5 pounds of boost.  The GPH topped 16, and the odometer said that it used .9 gallons in the 2 miles (I find fuel number to be pretty darn accurate based on the gallons used vs fill-up gallons)

I did not watch as much for smoke (too many things going on), but the couple of times I glanced, there did not seem to be a significant amount.  I am a little surprised, since there was quite a bit of fuel and not much boost.

The operating temperature did not get much above 160* as I recall, but I don't recall (from my previous driving) the ECM cutting power back while the temperature was coming up to normal.

The other symptom that I forgot about, was that the engine "stuttered" while the transmission was shifting (did it both days).  Normally that is very quick and smooth.

Still no codes.  It is almost as if the ECM was going into the "cut back mode" as it does when there is a fault code detected.

As I had mentioned, the transmission is flashing a fault code.  It involves the range shift sensor.  That was not a big deal in terms of driving, as I could get the first five gears and that gets me about 17 MPH which is OK in our subdivision.  What I am wondering out loud is whether the transmission ECM issues are affecting the engine operation?  They talk to each over very closely via the J1939 connection.  I will put in a call to our local Eaton expert and see if he has heard of such a thing.

Still looking for input.  Every reply gets me to thinking about possible causes.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2010, 05:00:05 PM »

Jim,

The engine temp at 160 should not hold the boost at 5 PSI.   I suggest you address the trans code first, since the boost remains elusive.   The trans may be limiting the boost as you suggest.  I say this because I do not see any other clues.

Any one else Huh

Which DDEC do you have again?

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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JohnEd
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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2010, 05:54:09 PM »

You mentioned a "loose" fitting on a intake hose.....after Sean's abysmal experience with a new engine I would be checking everything twice.  The air filter minder not giving expected indications caught my ear also along those same lines.

WOW!  I would have trouble sleeping or even relaxing.  Have a couple beers.

Wish I could be of any help and don't forget to take that turbo to QS for the repair.

John

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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2010, 06:36:21 PM »

It sounds like the Silverleaf is invaluable during all this.  I'm glad I got one for my Series 60.

I sure hope you can get the problem resolved soon.  Almost a gallon of fuel in 2 miles doesn't seem right.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2010, 06:59:59 PM »

Brian, I don't know what I would do without the SilverLeaf.  I am not surprised about the amount of fuel.  Actually, there was some idling in there and then I was hitting the engine pretty hard.  It shows 2.3 MPG for the 2 miles.

I notice when I first fill up and zero the odometer (the one I use as my "fuel gauge") and take off, my mileage is very low for the first few miles.  It takes quite a bit of fuel to get going.  I also suspect that in that very small window, the errors can be magnified.  I was just glad to see the number high, as it shows good fuel supply.

I have been very careful to make sure the supply side is well sealed.  When I tore the parts off during the removal process, the first thing I looked for was dust in the fresh air side.  It was very clean.  I just went out and looked, and I have one yellow line.  That is low for my engine, but with the turbo not pushing a lot of air, it is probably a reasonable value.

I left a call for the local Eaton guy.  He is extremely helpful.  I told him it was not urgent, as I am leaving town for a few days.

JohnEd, there are not words to describe my mental state right now!!  I can't remember if I mentioned it here, but we have had several family health scares (daughters and their kids) that have had both Pat and I in turmoil.  That is why we are going to do the escape thing and head to Quartzsite on Sunday.  A few days away and lots of bus BS will hopefully clear out the monsters lurking in what little gray matter I have left Smiley.

Ed, I am leaning towards the transmission contributing to the problem.  When I get back, I will completely disassemble the wiring harness and rework it so that I can mount the ECU in a place I can work on it and do a better job of securing the connections.  The transmission has flashed about 6 different codes in the last few days and all have be eliminated by working on the connections.  This last code has been stubborn.  I have worked on the connections and it went away for a while, but that does not seem to work now.  It is a terrible job to get to all the sensors/controls, but I will just grit my teeth and get it done when I get back.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2010, 07:12:40 PM »

Jim,
  One thing you haven't mentioned is how the engine power feels? (seat of the pants method) How are you reading / measuring your boost pressure? If the power seems close to normal could the boost measurement system be at fault? Do you have a way of measuring exhaust gas temperature? It is an import tool in measuring the fuel mixture ratio on diesel engines. 600 to 900 degrees rolling down the road and about 1200 max on a long hard uphill pull.

Ken
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2010, 07:29:12 PM »

Ken, I am measuring the boost off of the engine transducer via the SilverLeaf (same process as using a ProLink).  I have a separate gauge, but did not look at it today.  The first day, it too indicated low boost.

The power is terrible.  Just what you would expect with low boost.

I welded a bung on the exhaust pipe right at the turbo for an EGR, but have not had the funds to order one yet.  On a Series 60 there is no location for an EGR without modifying the manifold, and I did not want to do that.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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