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Author Topic: Can I please ask for some opinions please. Should I chose an RST or a 4108?  (Read 6254 times)
JackConrad
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2010, 04:50:24 AM »

there is NO such thing as a supercharged Detroit Diesel 8V71. An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't.

I thought a blower & supercharger were the same thing, just called by a different name.  What is the difference bvetween the 2?  Jack
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2010, 05:12:49 AM »

Thanks Jack!  I had the same question.

Dutch,
I have to second the "run away" vote.  He is asking double what that bus is worth and I really don't think it would do what you want. 

Glenn
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Glenn Williams
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1968 MCI 7 Ser. No. 7476 Unit No. 10056
8v71
4 speed Spicer
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2010, 05:32:17 AM »

ANY vehicle can be made into an all wheel drive.  Check out Tuthill.com and the hydraulic front axle drive system.  You replace the existing hub ends with 55hp each hydrostatic motors that run off the PTO of the transmission.  It has a simple on off switch, and when on automatically switches off at 25 mph and then free wheels.  Only thing is the cost-$35,000 using their axle.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2010, 06:52:02 AM »

One major concern I would have is he says he brought it back from wisconsin, I base out of the upper penninsula and it's just north of wisconsin, I've very familiar with the state, it's one of the heaviest salt using states I've ever seen, I think that bus will be a major rust issue.
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4905 doc
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2010, 09:56:25 AM »

all wheel drive skoolie still sounds like the answer. maybe someone will chime in, didn't places like colorado  have fleets of all wheel drive buses for mountain school districts? this being said however, the coment about winches got me thinking. how bout a surplus military 6x6? I'm thinking the old communications models. big box on back, lots of ground clearance, winch equiped, multifuel engine. win win win. Grin
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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2010, 09:56:40 AM »

Jack, that got me curious as to whether the Roots Blower is a supercharger.  I, too, always thought the Roots Blower is a supercharger.  So does Wikipedia. [url][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_type_supercharger/url]  So, I see nothing wrong with the ad, other than calling the Spicer an Allison - easily understood since GM's Detroit Diesel division became the Detroit Diesel Allison Division.  

It does seem to me that he may be optimistic about price, given the current market.  However, new front tires, generator, etc. - maybe not that much.  I'd wonder about the rear tires, and general condition (rust, bulkhead, etc.).  The blank canvas to do the interior could be an asset - we have to redo part of the interior of our 4107 because it was designed for a family with a lot of kids.  However, interiors take money, and it does look like you can get something ready to use for the same dollars these days.

Bottom line - the guy looks on the up and up to me.  

What's far more important, though, is that a coach, suburban, or transit doesn't look like the right vehicle for this application.  If I were working on the decision, my first focus would be on whether the tool would work.  In my woodshop, I have some tools that seemed like the right purchases but as I gained more knowledge and skill, they ended up on the shelf, or even given away.    

Arthur  
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
1968 PD-4107

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Barn Owl
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2010, 10:01:34 AM »

In this market I bet it would take a long time for me to sell my bus for $10k if it sold at all. It has a good looking functional interior, and all of the GM conversion upgrades that most want like PS, AT, Jakes, Spring brakes, Alcoa wheels, a huge radiator etc. And it has just proven itself very roadworthy, after crawling all through the Rockies. If I gave it a decent looking paint job I could cross my fingers and go to $15k. Unfortunately, for those who have started projects when the values were higher and now have lost interest, they are going to take a bath on any sale. A "shell", no matter how many "parts", is worth slightly more than scrap.

My bus as an example:

Inside

Outside

I also cast my vote for the skoolie.
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L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2010, 12:10:42 PM »

Technically, a roots blower is a super charger in certain applications. However, in conjunction with a 2 stroke Detroit engine, it's not a super charger.. since all it does is supply the air that makes cumbustion possible.
A 2 stroke Detroit doesn't create vacuum of it's own, (2 stroke Detroit's won't run without the blower), so it has to have the roots blower to force air into the cylinder in order to be able to run at all.
In a super charger application, the roots blower compresses the air, adding more volume, doing a similar job that a turbo does.

there is NO such thing as a supercharged Detroit Diesel 8V71. An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't.

I thought a blower & supercharger were the same thing, just called by a different name.  What is the difference bvetween the 2?  Jack
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2010, 12:20:57 PM »

To explain it a little more clearly, the blower IS a supercharger, but in the 2-strokes it simply provides the few inches of pressure necessary to push new air into the cylinders.  A turbocharged 2-stroke is actually a "two-stage" supercharged engine, with the turbo providing boosted pressure to the blower.
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Dutch106
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2010, 02:15:36 PM »

Hey Guys,
 Thanks for all the input guys. I guess I was barking up the wrong tree thanks for putting me straight guys and gals.
 Barn owl that's a nice looking bus I really like the interior, I would think it would push more even with the market in the full failure mode its in. I saw a bus a retired fellow who had lost his wife was selling for 30K that looked almost as nice with a fancy paint job on the out side. I thought if I had 30 K to throw around I'd like to go look at.
 The caveat being I'm new to this of course, but very professional looking from afar.

Could anyone please point me were to looking for info on finding, evaluating and converting sckoolies?
Dutch
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 05:09:33 PM by Dutch106 » Logged
4905 doc
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2010, 04:08:28 PM »

skoolie.net Smiley
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2010, 12:36:02 PM »

I have read the term "neutral displacement" to describe the function of the blower. It only moves the amount of air that is needed to support combustion.
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L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2010, 05:40:00 PM »

Hello All
I have never been to this site. I usually stick to the GMC based site to gather information about busses. I am forced to join in this discussion in an effort to clear up some misguided and uninformed advice being given to the fellow looking at my 4108. I will try to tackle the issues one at a time.
1.   I inadvertently called the trans an Allison instead of the Spicer unit that it is. My bad. I have not used this bus in several years and made a mistake. This does not mean “The guy offering the bus has no idea what he is trying to sell.” If DRDAVE-RELOADED would like to sit down and talk GMC’s, let’s go.

2.   “The 4-speed Manual is probably a Spicer 4-speed non-synchronized type as typical with Buffalo's. The First and Reverse Gears are So tall that you can't get rolling easily on hilly terrain and will eventually suffer clutch failures which are not pretty or cheap to fix.”
This is typical with thousands of Buffalo’s for a very good reason. It is an excellent transmission. The correct way to start this bus from a stopped position is a “dead throttle” start. That means using no throttle when letting the clutch out. No throttle combined with a wet clutch equals very long clutch life. GM would not have used this combination for so long if it didn’t work well. Why have none of you pointed out to him the fact that he would be better off with this combination that was engineered to work together that to take a city bus designed for slow driving and spend a ton of money trying to get it to do something it was not built to do?Huh

3.   “The 1978 4108 is missing the accelerator cable (the owner is replacing it now) He was going to replace it with an air pedal? for himself but since near as I can tell that's about a $1k in parts. it seems to be his cheaper option. (I'm thinking it will be a good indication of the quality of his maintenance if he fixes what caused it to fail in the first place.” 
What causes a throttle cable in a 31 year old bus to fail is called age,use and wear & tear. I don’t know any mechanic capable of fixing that.
4.   “One major concern I would have is he says he brought it back from wisconsin, I base out of the upper penninsula and it's just north of wisconsin, I've very familiar with the state, it's one of the heaviest salt using states I've ever seen, I think that bus will be a major rust issue.”
 Two major problems with this guy and the others warning of rust issues. Anyone knowledgable in GMC’s knows they are an all aluminum bus. Go back to school. Aluminum equals no rust. Extra credit to Kyle4501 to warn about corrosion of which this bus has little to none at all. Second, anyone who is “very familiar with the state” would know that the northern half of the state where I was living as well as the rural areas use no salt at all, only sand. Besides the bus spent the majority of it’s life in Texas and was to my knowledge never driven in Wisconsin in winter.
5.   As to the several comments about it being worth slightly more than scrap, there are two brand new Michelin steering tires up front mounted on two brand new Alcoa rims as well as two rims for the rear still in the box. There is also an Onan 4000w generator with less than 10 hours on it. The cost of these items alone exceed the scrap value of the bus.
6.   “An 8V71 has a blower as part of it's air intake system. (looks like a supercharger) But isn't.” 
The term blower and supercharger are the same thing. If it looks like a supercharger and walks like a supercharger, IT IS A SUPERCHARGER!!!! Where do you think the hotrod term that you can see dozens of times in any hotrod magazine “8-71 style blower” comes from.
7.   There are a class of people out there that feel the only way they can show other people how important or valuable they are is it bad mouth or demean them. Doing this makes them feel important. When the rest of us see them this is not the opinion we have of them. This fellow came to you and asked for your knowledge and advice in buying a bus, while many of you did honestly help him with sound advice, some fell short. Look in the mirror and see which one you are.
8.   Kuddos to Runcutter. Finally the voice of experience.
9.   “A "shell", no matter how many "parts", is worth slightly more than scrap.” 
This honestly has to be to worst of all. According to this guy a shell with no parts is worth the same as a shell with all the parts needed to build a complete bus conversion. Maybe I’m stupid, but as a guy who has had to pay for these worthless parts, I have to assign a real value to useful and needed parts.
10.   “Technically, a roots blower is a super charger in certain applications. However, in conjunction with a 2 stroke Detroit engine, it's not a super charger.. since all it does is supply the air that makes cumbustion possible. A 2 stroke Detroit doesn't create vacuum of it's own, (2 stroke Detroit's won't run without the blower), so it has to have the roots blower to force air into the cylinder in order to be able to run at all. In a super charger application, the roots blower compresses the air, adding more volume, doing a similar job that a turbo does.” 
This is true at sea level. At altitude it does provide boost to match conditions at sea level. Very nice to have at altitude, it will not suffer power loss. That is why they use the same setup on aircraft.

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BG6
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2010, 06:53:24 PM »

BK, since you're new here, I'm going to be gentle on you.

The folks on this site represent (by my own estimation) about 600 years worth of experience with coaches, and at least half of us have owned at least one GMC. 

When you say "Anyone knowledgable in GMC’s knows they are an all aluminum bus. Go back to school" you are showing your own ignorance -- there is a LOT of steel in the Buffalo, and rust IS a problem.

Then you say "According to this guy a shell with no parts is worth the same as a shell with all the parts needed to build a complete bus conversion. Maybe I’m stupid, but as a guy who has had to pay for these worthless parts, I have to assign a real value to useful and needed parts."

You can assign any value you like, but you are in a forum with a few dozen users who know a LOT about the value of a coach shell and of conversion parts.  As a general rule, the "conversion parts" which come with a project are the wrong parts in the first place.  If you look back through the years' worth of messages here, you will see that we've thrown away tons of "conversion parts."

Lose the attitude and you are welcome here.


.
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BK
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2010, 07:35:32 PM »

So you are telling me you would throw away a set of Michelin steering tires valued at over $1200 that have less than 1500 miles on them as well as the two brand new Alcoa rims they are mounted on, the two Alcoa rims that are still in the box for the rears as well as the new onan 4000 generator and brand new 60 gal propane tank etc. With over 600 years experience I would think some one here would see value in such items and add that value to the price of a shell. As for taking it easy on my, don't worry. I am a big boy and can take the heat just fine. P.S. I would love to do some dumpster diving at your house with all the valuable items you seem to dicard.
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