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Author Topic: 8V92TA DDEC II oil level  (Read 4461 times)
Sam 4106
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« on: February 06, 2010, 09:22:57 AM »

Hi Folks,
What is the proper method to check the oil. My practice has always been to check the oil cold before starting.
On our way to Quartzsite in December we stopped with the bus on a side slope with the dipstick on the high side of the engine. When I tried to restart it it would turn over but not fire. I checked the oil and found it to be below the add mark so I added a half gallon of oil and it started right up. Now the engine won't start unless I add some oil each time, as little as a pint is all it takes, even if the oil level is at the full mark. Is there an oil level sensor in the engine? Is there something in the computer that needs to be reset? Do I have the wrong dipstick and the oil level is always low? The data on the valve cover says I have Unit 08VF143038 S.O. 5A16495 Model 80877840 SPEC.
0810 oil pan
0939 dipstick
The number stamped on the dipstick is 5131903 with a backward check mark after the last 3.
Can anyone help me on this problem? The engine was installed NEW 83,000 miles ago.
Thanks, Sam MC8
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
edvanland
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2010, 09:26:20 AM »

Right or wrong, what I did was run the bus (8V92) then check the oil. I brought it up to the full level. I ten let the bus sit overnight and made another mark on the dip stick. Now before I start the bus I check the oil and if it is at the extra mark I made then I know it is full of oil. Just my way of doing it.
Ed
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Ed Van
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robertglines1
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 10:34:52 AM »

bus level engine off for at least 20 minutes is when to ck oil...dipp stick end should be 1 inch below block..hope this helps....take stick out flush with top of tube to ck measurement 1 inch below block on oil pan.
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2010, 10:39:47 AM »

to add to last post ....markes are with engine off....If you overfill it will discharge extra all over everything...ck water level mine is very sensitive to this
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luvrbus
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2010, 11:26:53 AM »

Sam, to answer your question there is no low oil senor only low oil pressure or high oil temperature. Your group # 0810 is the right one for your engine

good luck
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 11:31:08 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Sam 4106
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2010, 02:47:55 PM »

Thanks for the responses.
robertglines1
I had read that the oil level in an 8V71 should be 1" below the bottom of the block but didn't know if that also applied to an 8V92. Thanks for that information. I did hold the dipstick outside the tube to see where the full mark was in relation to the bottom of the block and it seems to be a little over 1". As for water level, I know that can affect starting but the only thing I have done is add oil in a no start situation. So I think the water level is OK.
luvrbus,
Now I am really confused. Since there is no oil level sensor I'm having a hard time figuring out why adding oil in a no start situation allows the engine to start right up. Could there be any other cause for my unusual problem? This is turning into a real mystery to me. Up until the first crank but no start occurrence the engine always started within a revolution or two. After the crank but no start happened four times I started adding oil before I cranked it over. I kept the Aquahot engine preheat on all night every night we were on the road so I don't think the engine was too cold to start. And adding oil wouldn't change the temperature of the engine. After I added oil the engine started right up. Do you have any suggestions for things I might try to cure this problem?
Thanks for the help, Sam MC8
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
robertglines1
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 06:35:37 AM »

just for a ck park bus with front up hill to eliminate a possible chance of air getting into the oil pick up tube at the point it attaches to block....with front up hill it should have oil pickup connection covered with oil and if that is the problem will start right up..also once I had a wire on the oil pressure switch just barley loose.....ck guage while cranking if it is a no start (is it reading anything)??I have a DDec II...you also said it didn't necessarly matter the amount or oil you added...mabe you are toching a partially connected or broken sensor wire when you are adding oil..oil tank or filling thru cap? just trying to brain storm some solutions for a not clear condition..would like to know outcome...
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 06:59:49 AM »

Is it possible that adding new oil changes the warm oil "viscostity" just enough to make the pressure switch. If the
pressure switch is weak, the warm oil may not "trip" it but will hold it on once running ? I have seen this happen on industrial applications.....just a thought!

David P. Benck
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Sean
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 07:26:22 AM »

Just because the DDEC does not have an input for an oil level sensor does not mean that none is fitted to your pan.

FWIW, I also have a DDEC-II 8V92TA, but Neoplan also equipped these engines with a Kysor shutdown system.  This system monitors a number of items, some of which are redundant for the DDEC control (e.g. Coolant Level), but it DOES have an oil level sensor.  I have a tell-tale on the dash for low oil level, a bell rings, and eventually the engine will shut down (the module closes the fuel solenoid).  If the condition exists pre-start, the fuel solenoid will remain closed, and the engine will not start.

FWIW, I have found that the sensor is actually too low.  So if that light comes on, the oil level is not just low, it is critically low.  Also, it is towards the rear of the pan -- the couple of times it has come on for me have been when I was braking.

You might hunt around to see if your engine has been equipped with such a shutdown system.  The Kysor unit is a brown box, IIRC about 5"x2.5"x.75".  On my coach, it is mounted in the forward J-box.

FWIW and HTH.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 07:36:35 AM »

He could also have the Murphy system Sean It is hard to give advice not knowing what he has but if it is a straight DDEC it will not have a low oil sensor only a aftermarket unit like yours 



good luck
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 11:24:18 AM »

This morning, in an effort to see if I have an oil level sensor, I moved the bus so I could get into my pit. There is no sensor on the outside of the oil pan and no evidence of a safety shutdown system other than the DDEC II. I checked all of the wire connections on the coolant and oil pressure sensors and checked the wires for any abrasions. No loose connections or abrasions were found, although I didn't take any wires out of the plastic looms.
When I tried starting the engine it started right up, ran for about 5 seconds, and died. I tried three times to restart it by cranking for 15 seconds then resting for 30 seconds. It would not fire. Then I added a quart of oil and it started immediately and continued to run. I had plugged in the block heater for 3 hours before the initial start so the engine was warm.
My next step will be to change the oil when the Exxon XD 3 oil I had to order gets here. There has been Shell Rotella oil in the engine since new but after reading Clifford's comment, on another thread, about having lower oil consumption with Mobile Delvac (Exxon XD 3) I decided to switch. I added about 3 1/2 gallons of oil on our 2000 mile trip home from Quartzsite, AZ I suspect some of the oil went out the air box drains since I didn't shut the engine down all day any of the six days of the trip, just put it on fast idle when we stopped for breaks and lunch. I didn't want to be stranded if the engine wouldn't restart.
Would someone tell me how many gallons of oil to put into the engine when I change oil? I want to verify that my dipstick is reading correctly by putting in a known amount of oil.
Any further suggestions are welcome.
Thanks, Sam MC 8
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 12:35:48 PM »

Hey Sam,

I am assuming you are the same Sam that had me drooling over your motor last fall at the Minnesota get together with gumpy and all the others. If you're another Sam I apologize.
Does your motor have the external tank that you add oil into ? or are you adding directly into an oil add tube?  or are you adding oil directly into the the valve cover??

I'm just trying to visualize where the oil that makes your engine mysteriously fire is entering the engine.

I have an external tank that I can add 2 gallons of oil to and if I open a valve it will put it directly into my crankcase as needed. Sure sounds like an aftermarket low oil shutdown sensor. When you find out your engines oil capacity you can fill it with the new oil and see if it still does it, if it does you got yourself a jard to diagnose intermittent problem.

I have to admit this one really baffles me. I'm really curious to see how this turns out. Please keep us informed

Thanks Rick
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RickB
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 12:46:10 PM »

To add to my last post:

3 1/2 gallons sure seems like alot of oil to go through on a 2000 mile trip. Are you leaking that oil or burning it? If you are burning it that may be a symptom of a tired engine.

When it comes to your idling comment, I also came from the don't shut it off school of two stroke users but I have changed my tune because although you may develop an issue by shutting it off, chances are it is an issue that was going to happen anyways at some point and the evidence I've heard over the years seems to say that idling our motors for prolonged periods will definitely hurt them in the long run. 100,000 mile rebuilds seem to have as one of their major culprits extended periods of idling.

I just spoke to Van over the weekend and we are both adopting the "shut it off, even at gas stops" behavior.

Rick
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Don4107
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 03:18:05 PM »

Next time you have a no start situation try waiting about the same amount of time it would take you to add oil and then try again.  Adding the oil may not matter.  It could be the time it takes.  Just a thought.

Don 4107
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
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luvrbus
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 04:14:47 PM »

Sam, the shut down in the 5 to7 second time frame is what a DDEC will do if it is not reading oil pressure try disconnecting the batteries for about 1 hour and clean all the pin connections.
If you have tried that disconnect the oil sensor and bypass it.  
Your engine should hold 7 gals of oil + the filter.
Fill the filter and add 6 gals of oil and see where the mark is on the stick  



good luck



« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 04:26:08 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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RickB
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 04:15:11 PM »

Hey Don may be on to something here. We had an intermittent problem which eventually turned out to be water in the tail lights (I'm not joking here) that was causing the main circuit breaker to pop and a couple minutes later it would fire right up and run for a few seconds, overheat the breaker and shut down.

Good thinking Don.

Rick
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 07:22:16 PM »

Thanks for the additional thoughts guys.
Don, that is a good idea and easy to try. I am open to any suggestions.
Clifford, I have had the batteries off with the main disconnect but I'm guessing that doesn't disconnect the computer. I will try your suggestion tomorrow. The pins that I should clean are the ones connected to the computer aren't they? I have not done that. Where on the engine is the oil pressure sensor? The only one I see, other than the gauge sender, is on the dipstick side of the engine near the fan drive pulley. Is that it? Thanks for the oil capacity, too.
Rick, yes I am the Sam you met at the rally last fall. I sure hope it isn't the drool you left on my engine that is causing the problem, LOL. I am totally baffled by what is happening with this crank but no start problem. The oil enters the engine in the center of the passenger side valve cover through a flexible hose to the rear of the engine compartment. My brother told me to remove the cover on the oil fill tube and see what that does. He thinks there may by pressure building up in the crankcase and is being relieved when I remove the oil fill cover. That sounds kind of offbeat but who knows what is causing the problem. I am confident that the solution will be found with the help of the members of the board and my tenacity to keep trying.
Thanks to all that have offered suggestions, Sam MC8
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 08:50:04 PM »

Sam if it is one of those breakers and I doubt it is because you have a DDEC but if it is you will hear it reset right by your left leg in the front electrical panel.

hmmmmm.  Clifford's probably right...     again

and someone will get their problem fixed     again

Clifford always wins. It's not fair I tell you. LOL Grin Grin

We should all count our blessings for the combined knowledge represented on this board, about 97% of which resides in Clifford, Don and Tom C.  Shocked

Sam I always smile when I think of that rig of yours. Heck I liked the motor so much I went and bought one. Just a matter of time and money before we're gonna be dueling turbo's. Sweet music to a gearheads ears.

Lea and I and the kids send a big hug to you and Char from snowy Minnesota

See you next summer my friend. Stay warm and stay well.

Rick










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robertglines1
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2010, 09:22:09 AM »

Sam wanted to bring this foward as I never heard outcome and the grimlin is after me now.
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2010, 10:02:34 AM »

Hi Robert,

Are you having the same problem I had of having to add oil before your engine will start? If you are, what have you tried to correct the problem?

I haven't gotten a resolution to the problem YET! I had to order the oil I want to use (Exxon XD 3) and it took weeks to get it. Makes me wonder if I made the right choice from an availability standpoint, but I ordered 24 gallons so that will last a while. When I get the oil changed to know where full on the dipstick really is, I may learn that I have been keeping the oil level too low, just to the full mark on the dipstick. If so, I hope that solves the problem. I am currently waiting for a new dry air filter and don't want to drive the bus, to warm it up, without one, although it is raining today so it probably wouldn't matter. I put in a new air filter just before our trip to Arizona (4000 miles round trip) but we drove in a dust storm for an hour and a half, or so, and now the filter minder shows 11 inches of vacuum so I decided to change the filter. I think I would be paying for the cost of the new filter in increased fuel usage anyway. Sorry I couldn't help at this time.

I have done some of the things that have been suggested. I disconnected the batteries, filled the oil to above the full mark, and checked the terminal connections on the DDEC. It's still winter here so I haven't done too much on the bus until lately. I will update  everyone on my progress when I can.

Good luck, Sam MC8
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2010, 10:35:57 AM »

raining here also just know I need to address problem before I go home in April,Just ask as I think mine is a relay kicking out:was just trying to cover all bases while in pre problem shooting phase...ThanK you ...will let you know results and diagonis proceedure
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2010, 11:33:11 AM »

Hey Sam,

Rick barron here. Great talking to you yesterday. You are a really good guy to have so near. Lea and I are looking forward to making the trip down to visit you and Char soon.

Just a thought... I'm not sure where you are getting your air filters and I know the 92 filter is a higher volume filter than my 71 but I found that Mohawks prices on air filters is considerably less than most folks.

Just letting you know for future reference,

Let us know how that oil/starting thing turns out

Take care of yourself my friend,

Rick
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2010, 12:41:26 PM »

Found mine a corroded wire end on the low coolent sensor..good luck on yours
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2010, 05:36:36 PM »

Hi Robert,
I'm glad you found the problem so quickly. Good job!
Thanks for the update, Sam MC8
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2010, 03:12:01 PM »

Hi folks,

I think I can finally put this thread to rest. I started the bus twice yesterday with no problem. Warmed the engine up, changed oil and filter, and refilled with 6 gallons of oil plus the filter as Clifford had suggested. The dipstick showed a little above the full mark so I added the seventh gallon which brought the oil up on the dipstick to the mark that PO had added. So now I know that I have to maintain the oil level between the original full mark and the mark that was added. I think disconnecting the batteries is what allowed the engine to start without adding oil every time. Anyway, things seem to be back to normal.

Thanks again for all the help, Sam MC8
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2010, 03:15:11 PM »

Sam,

Way to go buddy! I knew you'd get that thing fixed it was just a matter of time.

Rick
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