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Author Topic: Are there different types of Power Cool coolant?  (Read 4824 times)
belfert
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« on: February 17, 2010, 12:37:16 PM »

I called the big local Freightliner dealer where I get my Detroit parts and they quoted me $19.79 a gallon for Power Cool extended life coolant!

Are there different types of Power Cool?  This is twice what someone else said they get Power Cool for at W.W. Williams.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 12:59:18 PM »

They only have 3 now till last year they had 4 but now you can not buy the green in the Power Cool brand they changed that to Alliance brand at the DD dealers (the brand I use in the 8v92)
Power Cool std
Power Cool Plus
Power Cool off road


good luck

« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 01:07:51 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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johns4104s
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 03:58:55 PM »

Clifford,

So what do I ask for and how much should I buy next week at W.W. Williams for my 8v92?

Thanks

John
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luvrbus
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 04:25:27 PM »

John, I am afraid to mention the "A"word lol but if you can buy Power Cool for less than 10 bucks a gallon like Don said he paid go for it.  
A problem for you if you have the green in your engine you need to do a good flush the 2 don't mix it will cause slime and also keep in mind you have to use distilled water with the pink that is how the manufactures get away with calling it long life another 15 bucks here in AZ


good luck
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 04:32:38 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 05:32:45 AM »

Clifford,

Yes mine is green, is yours green? Were do I buy the green at a good price?

John
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belfert
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 08:13:05 PM »

I have determined that the Power Cool coolant the local dealer is selling is the extended life version.  Every extended life diesel coolant I can get locally is all $20 a gallon.

Extended life coolant makes senses as it can stay in a Series 60 for four years instead of two years per Detroit.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 09:42:18 AM »

Hi Brian.  I going to use this post to answer, as best I can, your question here and also your questons via the PM route (so that everyone can see my reply).

First of all, thanks for purchasing and downloading the Sept. 09 issue of BCM and reading my article. 

I want to quote a question you asked via PM so that I can talk about the article:

Quote
Interestingly enough, the Shell Zone coolant I bought at a Freightliner dealer is not ASTM D-6210.  It says it is formulated for heavty duty diesels and it also says it meets ASTM D-4985 for HD diesel engines.


That was in reference to the antifreeze you first put in your engine.  The reason I wanted to include that quote is to point out that my article really only covered the basics of antifreeze.  As I did my research, my mind was boggled at all the technology that has been developed in recent years.  Some of that technology is just now beginning to become standardized by SAE and ASTM.  Those two agencies will not work on a standard if there is only one supplier.  Once other manufactures offer the same technology, the standards process can begin. 

When I wrote the article, I listed the two most prevalent ASTM standards so as to avoid making the article to complex.  As far as I know, the only automotive ASTM standard is D-3306 and products meeting that standard are the ones that DD (as well as CAT and Cummins) USED (more later) to say to AVOID. As I prepared this reply, my mind became even more boggled.  You will see why in some comments below.

ASTM D-6210 is described as:  a Standard Specification for Fully-Formulated Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Heavy-Duty Engines.  ASTM D-4985 is described as:  a Standard Specification for Low Silicate Ethylene Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Heavy Duty Engines Requiring a Pre-Charge.....  There are other ASTM standards for HD Diesel engines that I did not want to site in order to keep the article simple  Wink Grin - yeah, right!

So, maybe I would have better served the subject by saying that D-6210 and any antifreeze designed for HD diesel application should be used; and then sited the various ASTM standards (D-6210, D-4985, etc).  The other way to find what you want is to read the labels on the bottle.  I bought a product labeled Power Cool with a DD part number 23512138.

So, today I read the label on my recently purchased Power Cool (23512138) and it does indeed meet all of the OEM's HD diesel standards and ASTM D-6210.  It does not state that it is long life, but it is a sort of pink color.

BUT WAIT, what do I see on the label, but the fact that it also meets ASTM D-3306 Huh Huh  So, now I am getting a bit lost as to what to recommend.  For now (head swimming too much to do any more research), I guess a person should read the label and make sure it meets one or more of the following:

DD spec 7SE298
ASTM D-6210 or D-4985
RP-329 written by the Maintenance Council American Trucking (I have tried to find this on the net and can't - if anyone has link, please let me know).

Brian, I got my Power Cool antifreeze from ATTP in Denver (three zero three 301-7520)  They have a website (http://www.todaysparts.com/). but it does not have any significant content.  I paid $10.91 on 12/30/09 as a walk in customer.

After all that, I think my name is Shocked:

Jim


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Jim Shepherd
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 02:32:12 PM »

Jim, i just found i have a jug of antifreeze called Turbo Power.  Says it is Phosphate free, protects coolant system metals, including aluminum, and has low silicate corrosion inhibitors. Says it meets or exceeds A.S.T.M. 3306/4985 and S.A.E. J1034, Chrysler MS 7170, Detroit Diesel 7SE 298, Ford ESE M97B44A, GM 1825/1899M, and US Fed A-A-870A. Made in Canada, i think i bought it in the Seattle area in 05 as it has a date of May 05 2005 on it. Don't know what i paid for it, (might have bought a case at the time), but i think it covers everything i own. Wonder if i can still get the $2 mail-in rebate......now where is that receipt? Grin
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belfert
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 02:38:50 PM »

The Shell Zone coolant does not meet DD spec 7SE298 according to the spec sheet from Shell.  It meets a bunch of other standards for HD diesels.  I think Detroit really wants ASTM D-6210 compliance.

I'm not too worried about using the Shell Zone coolant.  I lost around 7 gallons of coolant during late fall 2008 because of a bad heater hose and I used automotive coolant to top off not knowing better.  I will flush and replace all of the coolant this spring or summer.  (Another $200 down the drain.)

That Power Cool coolant you got for $11 a gallon is the regular version, not the extended life version.  I am probably going to use Zyerex Extended Life Extreme from Napa that costs $16.99 a gallon.  It is on the Detroit list of approved coolants for the Series 60.  All of the other extended life coolants I can get locally are right at $20 a gallon.

Ed, Turbo Power is on Detroit's approved list at http://extranet.detroitdiesel.com/Support/On-Highway/Manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/Power_Guard_Oils/index4print_93K217.asp.  I'm a little surprised it doesn't meet ASTM D-6210 though.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
belfert
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 02:40:37 PM »

Could ASTM D-6210 be a new(er) standard and older coolant meets a different standard?  I have no idea how to find out when a standard went into effect.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 06:25:40 PM »

Oh man, don't throw stones, but I don't think you guys are talking about the whole picture. And no one is talking about the real difference in the coolants.

The SAE and ASTM specs measure how the coolant performs. They do not tell you much about how the coolant works.

Here are the questions you need answers to. What kind of chemical additive package does the coolant contain to prevent cavitation. The original, normally green stuff, contained a chemical package normally referred to as SCA, supplemental cooling additives. The SCA's are primarily nitrate salts and some corrosion inhibitors. They were consumed over time, and had to be replaced either with direct addition of SCA chemical additive, or by using a coolant filter that was loaded with SCA. The test strips were used to measure the level of nitrates in the coolant and give you an idea of the SCA level. Some coolant strips also measure the ethylene glycol water ratio to give you the freeze point, and some even measure the pH of the coolant to tell you if it is too acidic or too basic.

That was all well and good until OAT came along. OAT stands for Organic Acid Technology, and it is a completely different chemical package for preventing corrosion and cavitation. The extended life coolants use OAT. They are usually pink. The OAT is not consumed over time. The test strips are of no use with OAT coolants. Remember it is the additivie package that is different. The basic coolant is still ethylene glycol.

Just for grins, a hybrid

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Richard Entrekin
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 06:43:36 PM »

Just for grins a variant on the OAT package is hybrid organic acid technology, known is HOAT.

The three additive packages don't mix. A slight mix of the two won't really cause any problems, but you do not want to randomly or carelessly mix any of the packages. The OAT additives can cause the nitrates in SCA's to precipitate, which will coat the innards of the radiator and cut down on heat transfer.

If you are going to switch from one package to the other, you should do a complete clean water flush of the system including all the heater hoses up front.

Also, if at all possible you always want to use distilled or RO water for same reason. Just a little scale on the inside of the radiator has a drastic reduction in the heat transfer rate. The scale comes from the minerals in tap water.

I laugh as I write this, my momma worked hard to send me to school and I ended up with a degree in Chemical Engineering. Little did I know it was going to come in handy for the diesel affliction.
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Richard Entrekin
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 07:36:39 PM »

Richard, it appears that we have a REAL  Wink expert rather than a guy trying to research the subject (me).  Trying to research this subject was pretty trying.  There is a ton of marketing hype masquerading as technical information.  The market is flooded with technology that each manufacturer tries to make sound unique to their company. 

Would you do me a favor and read my article (Sept 09 BCM) and see if I need to do a revision or update?

When I wrote the article I chose not to discuss the OAT technology in order to keep the article at a fairly "101" level.  Maybe that was a mistake.  My research suggested that OAT technology was a bit pricey.

Thanks, Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 08:23:17 PM »

Jim,

As I was reading thru your post about the automotive ASTM D3306. Out of curiosity I looked at a jug of Prestone Extended Life coolant that I bought a few months ago. It shows on the back that it meets or exceeds: ASTM D3306 and D4985. I think it came from Wally World. But this one does not say anything about cars, light duty trucks or heavy duty  Undecided ??

I think we are caught deep in an enigma!  Roll Eyes Grin

Bryan

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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 08:34:30 PM »

Bryan, does it say anything about low silicate.  That seems to be the goal.

As you can tell, this whole subject is really confusing.  I thought I had a good handle on it and that may not be the case Shocked.

I am really burned out doing my research.  I hope someone will step up and check my article against their own research.  I don't think there are any significant errors in what I wrote, but I would love to have a cross check.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 08:53:32 PM »

Jim,

I did find where it says for auto or light duty trucks. But does have the ASTM D4985. The only other thing I see is: ethylene glycol (107-21-1) diethylene glycol (111-46-6) sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate (19766-89-3) and sodium neodecanoate (31548-27-3). I

Oh, and harmful or fatal if swallowed, causes birth defects in animals? Only animals  Cheesy Grin

Bryan
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belfert
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 05:48:00 AM »

I would just buy a coolant that is Detroit Diesel 7SE298 certified and be done with it.  Automotive coolant is only a dollar or two less per gallon.

Fleet Charge is available at O'Reilly Auto Parts for $10 a gallon.  It is on the list of Detroit approved coolants.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2010, 06:31:23 AM »

Ah the designer antifreeze DD with their pink and Cummins with their blue and then you have the green.
Fwiw I read where you can not use the Cat brand antifreeze made by Texaco in certain Cummins engines



good luck
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 06:48:51 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2010, 06:33:18 AM »

Jim, I have a confession. I don't get BCM. OOPs. You can send me an electronic copy of the article if you like to the email in my profile.

I agree with you, the coolant manufactures have obscured the issue unnecessarily....

On another note, the reason you want low silicate is this. Most understand that cavitation is bad. Cavitation is the little steam bubble that forms on the hot surface and then collapses. The collapse produces a shock wave that eats away at the surface that the bubble collapses on. After a while that eats through the surface aka cylinder liner

What the little bitty pieces of silicate ( a fancy word for dirt, sand, grit) do is form a precipitation site to help the bubble form and collapse. So coolant with high silicate content, or high mineral content cause you didn't use distilled water, will form bubbles easier.

Prove it to yourself. Put an inch of water in a pan on the stove and bring it to boil. You can see the bubbles start to form on the bottom of the pan.  Now replace the water with cool again and start over, except this time, put a couple of small pebbles in the pan. Look at where the bubbles start forming. If you measured the temp of the water you would see that the bubbles form earlier when you have the sediment in the water. Should take about one cold beer to run this experiment in your kitchen  :-)

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Richard Entrekin
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2010, 06:36:54 AM »

Here is some good reading about coolant. This is must reading in my opinion. Don't worry, it's not ChemE mumbo jumbo  :-)

http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/DDC-SVC-BRO-0002.pdf

http://extranet.detroitdiesel.com/Support/On-Highway/Manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/Power_Guard_Oils/index4print_93K217.asp

http://www.truckersnews.com/a-science-experiment-under-your-hood/
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Richard Entrekin
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 10:30:28 AM »

Richard, Thanks for posting the "factory links" for us.
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