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Author Topic: Check Engine Light location....  (Read 3194 times)
wayneswirld2
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« on: February 19, 2010, 08:10:45 PM »

Hate to beat a dead horse, but here goes.  I've been having a starting problem with my 1988 Gillig Phantom with a Detroit Diesel 6V92T engine.  The more I learn about this thing, the more I'm thinking that my fuel delivery problem is more ELECTRICAL than fuel. 

Can anyone tell me where I might find the check engine light?  And what would be the procedure for finding out what code, or codes, I might have?

Again....it's a 1988 Gillig Phantom 35' transit with a Detroit Diesel 6V92T.  Thanks, y'all....

Wayne
Austin, TX
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 08:53:50 PM »

Wayne -

I've forgotten where the switch was on our Gilligs at the transit property I worked for, but here's a suggestion:  Since Gillig is still around, why not contact them directly and ask?  Here's the contact info for the parts dept, if they can't answer, ask for someone who can:


GILLIG
Parts Department
P.O. Box 3008
Hayward, CA 94540-3008

Phone:  (510) 264-5160
Fax:  (510) 887-0981

Email: parts-sales@gillig.com


FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 10:21:25 PM »

If you are unable to get a list of the DDEC (flashing CE light) codes, I think I have one in my manual that I can email to you, or something. I used mine until the page was very wrinkled.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 04:38:51 AM »

Wayne,
    Have determined for sure if it is a DDEC or an MUI engine?  If the problem is electrical, this will make a big difference in diagnosing the problem.  Jack
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 05:18:49 AM »

Good point, Jack. Guess I was getting ahead of myself. Sorry.

Yup, there I am way back there !!
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 05:37:56 AM »

CEL lights are usually on the dash - usually in the ANNUMCIATOR LIGHT PANEL (Air Pressure/low oil/brakes/etc)

do you have a push button tranny selector - DDEC TEST switches are usually mounted on the front lower face of the shifter box

here are the DDEC code for DDEC-II 
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 06:20:56 AM »

I have no idea how to determine whether I have a MUI or DDEC engine honestly....given my serious lack of knowledge of busses.  Although in my electrical panel above the driver seat there is a DDEC relay?  Might be a DDEC?  THere are two toggle switches that say  "Engine Test" and "Trans Test" on the dash to the right of the speedometer.  Both of those are three position swithes that will toggle up and down, but immediately return to their center positions when you tanke your finger off of them.  I'm going to guess that we're dealing with a DDEC engine set up....and I'm going to guess that is going to make things a little more...interesting...in the diagnosis.

Wayne
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 08:02:27 AM »

Wayne, some folks have touched on this, but DD has a very specific requirement as to how DDEC information is to be displayed.  There will be two pretty good sized lamps in clear view of the driver.  One will be LABELED "CEL" or check engine  and the second will be red and will be labeled in some fashion to indicate that it is STOP engine light.  I can't recall if DD demands it, but there should also be a push button switch right next to the lamps that allows the driver to hold the switch in the depressed position to get the bus off the road if a critical engine event (over temp, low oil pressure, etc) set a code that will shut the engine down right away.

If you don't have those lights you have a mechanical engine. 

I think others have said to look for the engine shut down air solenoid on the governor.  If you have a governor, you have a mechanical engine. 

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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Pete RTS/Daytona ->'89 TMC 35' 102" 6V92TA 4:10


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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 09:42:24 AM »

Talked to Wayne on the phone

He has a DDEC-II  (connectors all on one side)

He has a CEL (check engine lite) and and SEL (stop engine lite) as well as a dianostic switch for both the tranny and the engine

The CEL does not blink twice when the bus is turned on

the cel does not blink any codes (not even the no error code 25)

MOREOVER  there is NO 12 volt POWER to pin A&B - E&F  of the J4 connector - INJECTOR POWER and GROUNDS for the LEFT/RIGHT BANK) (this is main injector power supplied usually via red wire 20 amp circuits - with C/B usually in the battery bay

SEE attached picture

I've sent him the pinout for all the other connectors (my guess is he has no battery or ignition power to the DDEC either - because he gets no CEL on turn on)


IT WOULD HELP IF SOMEONE KNOWS WHERE ON AN 87?? GILLIG THE (MOST LIKELY ) TWO @) AMP FUSES ARE FOR THE LEFT AND RIGHT INJECTOR BANKS

in the past I've always heard that they tend to be near the battery source (like the battery box) - Wayne has looked but does see anything

The 12 volt cutoff switch seems to work cause he hears trhe alarms go on when he turns the 12 volt cutoff switch on
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 09:44:31 AM by RTS/Daytona » Logged

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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 10:02:20 AM »

Once again, thanks Pete for all the help this morning.  Now that we've sort of narrowed this down, I'm starting to feel a little better about the purchase! 

For clarification purposes, the bus in s 1988 Gillig Phantom 35' transit with the 6V92T engine.

Wayne
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 10:15:18 AM »

Pete, I am a little confused.  I don't know much (anything?) about DDEC II, but on a higher DDEC, I don't think that the CEL and SEL would light if there was not any supply power. 

It sounds like you are saying that the ECM (maybe called ECU on a DDEC II) has power, but the power that supplies the injector is a separate power supply. 

Just trying to understand.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 10:24:18 AM »

Jim


The DDEC itself is powered via the IGNITION INPUT - B3 pin on connector J2

and  both banks of Injectors BANKS are usually powered DIRECTLY from the battery via twin 20 amp fuses to pins A&B and E&F of the small J4 center conector

My guess is he is missing BOTH  - 12 volt ign to B3 (no CEL power on diagnostic lite flash) and 12 volt direct from batteries to Injectors
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 10:20:50 PM »

There is a test jack on the coach for plugging in a DDEC test box. It will read out the fault codes.

If you do not have access to the test box, you can short across the ECM ground to the ECM test request pin (at the test jack because that is the easieest place to get to it), then the check engine light will flash the code. (I think you could get the test jack pin configuration from Gillig)

If the check engine light is functional (not burned out), and it does not light or flash when the contacts are shorted, then checking the ECM is a logical next move.
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 08:23:34 AM »

The test jack should be the same as any DDEC II equipped vehicle.  There is a standard so it is easier to work on them.
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Pete RTS/Daytona ->'89 TMC 35' 102" 6V92TA 4:10


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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 10:55:15 AM »

I already pointed wayne to the test port - he has the old GM OBD-1 style 12 pin - but some of the wires have been pulled out

I sent him the Pin outs for his DDEC-II and can use the "dianostic request / pin E1 to ground" on the DDEC itself and use a test light to monitor the CEL DDDC pin B1

Pete
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2010, 11:03:06 AM »

Hey y'all,

I'll be heading back out to the bus tomorrow to do some more diagnostics.  I'm really thinking that this is going to be something fairly simple to sort out now that I have some idea what I'm looking for.  Hopefully I'll find the problem Monday and get the beast to my shop.  I'll post more as I go along.
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 08:48:47 PM »

I already pointed wayne to the test port - he has the old GM OBD-1 style 12 pin - but some of the wires have been pulled out

I sent him the Pin outs for his DDEC-II and can use the "dianostic request / pin E1 to ground" on the DDEC itself and use a test light to monitor the CEL DDDC pin B1

Pete

That is what I love about this site - so many helpful people. Sorry, I did not mean to repeat your advice.

Keith
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 01:01:39 PM »

And the plot thickens.....After a couple of great conversations with both Pete and Richard, I ended up searching for the locations of the fuses that power both banks of injects.  Didn't take long to find a couple of fuses marked "EDU Bank A" and EDU Bank B".  Wouldn't you know it, BOTH fuses were blown.  It appears that these fuses might have been in their respective holders for ages, considering the amount of road crud on them.  And from the looks of them, they may have been blown for awhile too, although I can't be sure.

I've replaced both fuses, and the 5 amp ECM fuse as well...it was in the same location and had the same amount of road crud on them.  As luck would have it, there wasn't enough juice in the batteries to crank the beast over.  Now I'm just waiting for the battery charger to do it's magic stuff so I can crank her over and listten to that 6V92T purr, or cough and sputter....

Wayne
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 04:27:21 PM »

This one is going to be interesting on why both bank A and B blew at the same time and not the ECM  



good luck
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 04:42:34 PM »

I'm wondering the very same thing.  Having the batteries charged overnight so won't know anything till maybe tomorrow.  We've got a winter weather advisory for tomorrow so I might not make it back to the bus to work on it til it warms up in a few days. 

Being in Austin Texas a winter weather advisory really means we MIGHT have a slight dusting of snow, which closes down the city!  We're not used to cold weather here, OR wintery precip....might be an interesting day for driving tomorrow!

Wayne
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 05:19:21 PM »

HMMMM - could be be that the left over veggie oil was so thick that it made the injectors draw more current ??

but both fuses at the same time ??  - hmmmmmm

or was it all 3 fuses  (no CEL blink could mean the DDEC ECU fuse was also blown ??)

does the CEL NOW blink twice on turnon diagnostics ??
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 06:08:32 PM »

I though it was strange that both fuses were blown, but they really looked like they'd been in place for ages with all that road grime and crud on them.  To be honest I didn't even think about the CEL when I found the EDU fuses blown, so I can't answer that part of the question.  I figured that I'd replace that little 5amp fuse for the ECU just for good measure.  I'll know more in the morning when I get to the bus with the recharged batteries....

Wayne
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 08:57:27 AM »

Another UPDATE.....Pete, I now have the CEL and SEL illuminated when powering up the bus...YAY!  And also have tons of codes...12, 14, 16, 41, 43, 44, and 46.  It's just too damned cold here today to mess with it, but I'm makin' progress.....

Wayne
Austin, TX
and yes, it's snowing.
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 09:54:52 AM »

Lots of those codes will come on when trying to start a DDEC engine with low batteries

Make sure code 43 (low coolant) isn't real - check your overflow tank

unfortunately Flashing the codes on a DDEC-II will show HISTORIAL CODES  and  CURRENT/ACTIVE CODES

But

if you don't have the CEL or SEL light on AFTER you flash the code -  everything was HISTORICAL 

After DDEC-II they got smarter  CEL flashes historical and SEL flashes Active/Current  (or the other way around ??)

They only way to reset the historical codes is with a PRO-LINK diagnostic tool

Pete
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2010, 10:08:05 AM »

What part of Austin do live I will be in  Belton and Oakalla area in about 2 weeks and I have the Pro Scan and the DDDL software maybe I could be of some help. 



good luck
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2010, 10:19:24 AM »

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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2010, 12:00:22 PM »

We are planning to stop and see you and Cat at the rally just don't know how long we can stay yet.
We have a family reunion in Houston to get ready for the next weekend



good luck
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wayneswirld2
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »

I'm in north Austin, Wells Branch Rd. area.  Pretty much south Pflugerville....Should have the bus to my shop tomorrow, same area.

Wayne
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2010, 03:50:50 PM »

Wayne,

Did you get the bus running? If so, you should be able to bring it to the rally(friday a-week) and stay till sat. afternoon. Just need a place to sleep, a little elec. heater, extension cord, coffee pot, and a little diesel. Looks like your about 70 miles from the rally. Get to work!!!

Richard
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