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Author Topic: Engine Comparisons  (Read 3891 times)
Handyjim
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« on: February 23, 2010, 10:56:41 AM »

Is there a chart (or website) that does engine comparisons?  I'm new to this bus thing. Tried to do a search and couldn't find what I want.  6v72 versus 6v92 versus 8vXX; etc. with and without turbo, etc.  And where does a series 60 fit in the picture.  When I start my bus hunt, I want to have an idea of what to look for.  Power, performance, economy.  Am I asking the impossible to want the information distilled into an easy to use format?

I'm tired of  my Class A gasser crawling up hills, and having a love affair with every fuel pump. Smiley  So when I begin my purchase search, I want to get something that will make me happy to start, rather than face a repower in the conversion process. 
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JCorey
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 12:39:01 PM »

Hey Handy, I'm sure more knowledgable gents and ladies will chime in on this question, and I think you will find that everyone likes something about each available option out there. I personally held out for an 8V92 simply because the series 60 were too expensive at that time.(Pre-recession LOL) Good luck in your search, Will
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RTS/Daytona
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 12:48:37 PM »

try--> http://www.adieselengine.com/new_page_1.htm

and see attached file: it's a Canadian STATIONARY engine study (short form / long form) - has some usefull info -->
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 01:05:01 PM »

6V-71 and 6V-92 are virtually the same engine externally.  The 8V-71 is a bit shorter then the 8V-92 because of the big crankshaft vibration dampner on the 8V-92 on the front of it.

Big block engines include Cummins NTC/N14; Caterpillar 3406/C15/C16, 3408; Detroit Series 60.

Small Block engines (read a whole lot easier to install) are Cummins M11/ISM, ISL, ISC; Caterpillar C12, C13; Detroit Diesel MBE 4000. 

Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 02:12:42 PM »

Jim, If you are hoping to get better mileage from a bus you will be disapointed. No idea what you get, but most here are in the 6-9 range. Some are moving up the hills but a lot are not.  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 02:17:06 PM »

Would anything be wrong with a series 60 and B500 tranny in a 102D3?  Except maybe the price! Smiley  I know I won't get any better mileage than in my Southwind Gasser (7-7.5 mpg) but maybe I can get up a hill, and have m ore usable space.
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 02:37:18 PM »

Tom C

I have had a number of folks tell me that the actual block of the 8V71 is 2" longer is it just the dampener/balancer that makes it longer?

without stealing this thread, why wouldn't the cradle for the 71 work for the 92? oil pan, oil cooler, i thought none of these were interchangeable.

Rickb
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 02:59:49 PM »

« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 03:27:37 PM by divinerightstrip » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2010, 03:25:20 PM »

Rick, it is the crank and the oil pump that make a 92 longer the bare block on the 71 and 92 are identical in length so are the heads. 
The 8v92 weighs several hundred pounds more than a 8v71 also
I have some stuff that will work for a front mount I just need a photo of your 71 series mount and bet a coke we can make one work for you.  

good luck  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 04:14:14 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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johns4104s
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2010, 03:25:51 PM »

Greyhound went from MCI 9 to 102, then they wanted to go back to the MCI 9, This was not possible so MCI made the MCI 12 which is practically the MCI 9 with a diffrent power train.

I would look for a MCI 9 with a 6v92TA and Allison 740, Not the power of a 8v92T but with the 6v92TA you are able to keep the rpm up high were a Detroit likes it.

You would get a MCI 9 at a good price.

John

PS My MCI 9/Allison gives me  5 mpg if Im lucky plus a little. I think you will get 6 to 6.5 with the 6v92TA.
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 07:25:53 PM »

Tom Y speaks with great wisdom!

You will not be saving any trips to the fuel pump and now diesel is a LOT more than gas in my area.
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 07:48:00 PM »

I'm so old that I remember arguing about the difference between a 327 versus a 350 Chevy! If I remember right.... A 327 large journal crank in a 350 block with 307 heads!!!  Grin But in all actuallity, no more miles than most of us cover it doesn't make much sense or cents to be laying out a bunch of $$$ to get 8 miles a gallon instead of 6. Probably a better idea to wait for a good tail wind!! Grin And in all honesty if I can make my bus live another  20 or 30 thousand miles I'll be happy. Others may and probably do cover more miles than I plan on. Then again I'm just starting and who knows! It all depends on each of our plans.
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 09:54:43 PM »

On our last trip to Las Vegas pulling the car I got just over 6mpg at 58mph cruise. The best mileage I've ever gotton was 7.5 with a serious tail wind.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 04:28:55 AM »

Jim, I was not trying to talk you out of a bus. Just warning you of the comparisons about mpg and hills. I sure we would all like to see another member with a bus. Buy the best bus and drivetrain you can afford and enjoy. I say if you can get a 4 stroke. Others will will say stay with the old Detroits.   Good Luck  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2010, 04:57:06 AM »

With mileage being about the same, the safety factor should be concidered, a bus is far safer and will usually live longer than a factory unit.  In both cases the driver will be the first at any accident.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 05:13:59 AM »

Jim, the series 60 and B500 you mention is a hard combination to beat in a bus for power and fuel mileage. Plus service is so much easier to find for a 60 series on the road than a 2 stroke
I like the 8v92 but I am a old school guy but if I were buying it would be a bus with a newer 4 stroke engine and drive train.  


good luck
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 05:28:39 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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belfert
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2010, 05:28:14 AM »

I get about 7.8 to 8 MPG with a Series 60 11.1 liter 350 HP and a B500.  This is going from Minneapolis to Reno and back.  I have to cross the Rockies twice.  The bus isn't a rocket on the grades, but it do can better than most loaded semis.  I have gotten closer to 9 MPG on a trip out East where I had to drive slower with no big grades.

A 102D3 may have the larger 12.7 Series 60 with 400 HP so it will climb the grades better.  A 102D3 is also 3 feet shorter than my bus so it may be lighter too.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2010, 10:57:36 AM »

With my S60  12.7 ltr 500HP+  I average between 7.6 and 8.2 MPG > 65 -75 MPH..  I love the B500..
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2010, 01:10:56 PM »

I have my MC5a with the 8v71.  This is what we have, so this is what we will work with for now.  If we were looking to buy another coach, I would not disqualify a two stroke, but definitely would prefer the Series 60 if one could be found in our range.  Regardless of what drove the changes, newer engine technology is generally superior.  However, I would not let that alone stop me from buying a coach that I really liked.
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johns4104s
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2010, 05:56:23 PM »

Lin,

What type of mpg are you getting?

Thanks

John
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2010, 06:34:48 PM »

John,

The only time I tried to figure it, it was about 8 mpg.  That was with the Spicer and C60 injectors.  Hopefully, by the end of the week I will be taking it for its first drive with an Allison and N65 injectors.  I am hoping that the mileage will improve.  I know that runs against the normal logic, but if the bigger injectors allow me to drive one gear higher, it could happen.  Anyway, I will be real happy if it just doesn't drop too much.
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 07:34:29 PM »

I met a mechanic that did everthing he could to get the very best MPG with a MCI 9, He built the engine special, cams,injectors, transmission, I think he said 6v92T, they got 7 MPG max,(that's all he got),So with 480 hp I will have to live with 5+a little.
He was in charge of Dixieland Tours out of Baton Rouge La, about 20 plus coaches.

John
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luvrbus
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2010, 07:51:28 PM »

John, a 8v92 setup right with the right gearing will get better fuel mileage than a 6v92 or a 8v71 I get 7 to 7.5 every day of the week driving the speed limits. 
Are you in Phoenix we will be there Sat. 


good luck
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2010, 09:01:41 PM »

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 11:02:54 AM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2010, 04:35:13 AM »

Dallas, sounds like John needs a fuel modulator the 3 reasons I find most don't get decent mileage you pass by the bus they are setting there running on fast idle for a hour or so a day they will use 5 or 6 gals a hour on idle and that is never factored in on the mileage,  people run down the road with the Jake hot all the time and like you say no air.
 Most conversions I see from a 8v71 to 8v92 people are still using the 900 cfm air cleaner and same intake from the 8v71 the 8v92 needs 1600 cfm for performance and fuel mileage and the 1600 cfm requires 7 inch piping.
And fwiw I use my King cruise control a lot on the open highway like all the time



good luck
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 05:05:22 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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johns4104s
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2010, 05:19:34 AM »

Clifford,

Tami and I fly in to Phoenix for meetings on March 7th then fly back out on March 10th, Work Louisiana/South Texas, from March 11th thru April 14th, then we will be driving back to Phoenix (maybe spending 4 days in San Antonio) Phoenix for 4 weeks, then back to Louisiana.
So if you are in Phoenix in April/May we will see you guys.

So what I would do is come out of the air filter ( That will be changed to a 16 CFM) with &" piping and swedge down to 6" to go into the turbo, Correct?

John
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2010, 06:45:27 AM »

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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2010, 06:53:09 AM »

What about mounting an "electric fan" inside of it to help force more air in?  Sorry, couldn't help myself. Grin
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2010, 08:30:33 AM »

You might be starting from the wrong end of the equation. The type of bus you want and your budget will determine what type of engine choices you will have. More choices with a T-drive vs. V-drive etc. Newer, more HP fuel efficient buses = $$$.  What are your inclinations/limitations at this time?
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2010, 09:23:44 AM »

When I turbocharged my 8V-71, I had to change my air cleaner from 6" to 7", and even then, have to change the filter at 10,000 mile interval. Also took out the big stuffed up muffler (very quiet though) and installed a Donaldson 5" inlet/outlet same side muffler.  Makes for a nice exhaust tone and flows very well.  I believe it was about 18" long.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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