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Author Topic: towing lights 24v to 12v  (Read 3669 times)
mc5a Jon
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« on: March 12, 2010, 05:28:27 AM »

I want to build a conversion box to enable my bus to plug into a standard trailer with 12 volt lights. The trailer has 2 1157 bulbs and a 4 prong plug. Turn signals flash the brake light on and off on the selected side. Running lights are the other curcuit. The bus has 6 separate 24v light bulbs: 2 running, 2 brake, and a left and right turn signal. I want to build this right and cheap. I get stumped trying to get the turn signal to flash the brake light on the trailer. I'm sure one of you has already figured this out! Thanks for any help.
Jon
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 05:37:10 AM »

Craig has designed and build them! Or he will show you how!
http://bus.gumpydog.com
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 05:51:25 AM »

Here is the way we did ours.  The relays are the little "cube" relays with 24 volt DC coils.  Jack
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 05:51:53 AM »

I bought mine from Craig, he did a very nice job and added a tag for brake activation for me.  I don't consider it cheap, but less than doing it myself and top notch quality.

Brian
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 05:56:32 AM »

I bought mine from Craig, he did a very nice job and added a tag for brake activation for me.  I don't consider it cheap, but less than doing it myself and top notch quality.

Brian

I didn't say he was cheap, just good! Wink
But the only thing I HAVE found to be cheap in the bus world is ME! Wink
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mc5a Jon
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 06:03:39 AM »

Thanks Jack that was EXACTLY what I was needing. I to am the the cheapest thing involved with my bus, BK! Grin
Jon
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 11:00:18 AM »

I bought one of those turn/stop light converters. Now I see how Jack did it! DUH!! I should pay better attention.
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 12:18:47 PM »

Hi Jack,
When the brake lights and either one of the turn signals are on at the same time, does the turn signal flash twice as fast as when you have one of the turn signals on alone? It seems to me that that is the way it would work since the turn signal relay would be switching from brake light on to turn signal on with every click of the flasher. That may not be a problem. Just curious.
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 12:36:52 PM »

Hi Jack,
SORRY, after further study of your diagram I answered my own question. It will NOT flash twice as fast. I Will try to figure things out on my own in the future.
Thanks, Sam MC8
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 01:19:45 PM »

I bought one from Craig also & it is top notch.

TOM
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 02:39:48 PM »

... I Will try to figure things out on my own in the future.


Seems to me you did just that...  and in the present  Cheesy

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 02:14:16 AM »

Hi Jack or Craig,

It appears that the diagram posted is for a bus with separate stop and turn lights and a towed vehicle with combination stop/turn lights. Wouldn't a different arrangement be needed for a towed vehicle with combination stop/turn lights?

Wouldn't it be better to also have a ground wire between the bus and towed vehicle so you wouldn't depend on the hitch for ground?

Are all cube relays configured the same? It would be nice if the terminals in the drawing were numbered so novices, like me, would know how to attach the wires correctly.
 
Our bus has separate turn and stop lights and our car has combination stop/turn lights. There is a relay system in our bus now but the turn signals don't work on the car. The tail and stop lights do. I think the PO had the relays set up for a car or trailer with separate stop and turn lights. There are five wires used on the receptacle on the bus and only four wires used on the plug of our car. I thought I would need a converter between the bus and the car but now I think if I change the wiring to match the posted drawing the turn signals will work. If my thoughts are wrong please correct me.

Thanks, Sam MC8
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2010, 03:18:34 AM »


If you feel like building something, I've assembled a whole slew of options for converting 24V to 12V on my site:

  http://bus.getdave.com/Docs/12Von24V/

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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2010, 05:21:52 AM »

Hi Jack or Craig,

It appears that the diagram posted is for a bus with separate stop and turn lights and a towed vehicle with combination stop/turn lights. Wouldn't a different arrangement be needed for a towed vehicle with combination stop/turn lights? Yes, one relay for the tail lights and one for each turn signal (these take care of the brakes lights also)

Wouldn't it be better to also have a ground wire between the bus and towed vehicle so you wouldn't depend on the hitch for ground?I have that separate ground wire, just did not show it on the relay schematic

Are all cube relays configured the same? It would be nice if the terminals in the drawing were numbered so novices, like me, would know how to attach the wires correctly.As far as I know thay are all the same, but I am not sure of the numbers without looking at a relay. I think 30 is power coming in to be switched, 85 & 86 are for the coild and 87 is NO (switched power out). If it has 5 terminals 87a is NC and opens when energized. The relays I used were 5 terminal
 
Our bus has separate turn and stop lights and our car has combination stop/turn lights. There is a relay system in our bus now but the turn signals don't work on the car. The tail and stop lights do. I think the PO had the relays set up for a car or trailer with separate stop and turn lights. There are five wires used on the receptacle on the bus and only four wires used on the plug of our car. I thought I would need a converter between the bus and the car but now I think if I change the wiring to match the posted drawing the turn signals will work. If my thoughts are wrong please correct me.  I am not sure without knowing how the wires are conected  Jack
Thanks, Sam MC8
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2010, 05:52:00 AM »


It appears that the diagram posted is for a bus with separate stop and turn lights and a towed vehicle with combination stop/turn lights. Wouldn't a different arrangement be needed for a towed vehicle with combination stop/turn lights?


Typically, even if a vehicle has separate stop and turn lights, which most new vehicles do, we only use the the stop light for both stop and turn. It doesn't matter if you blink a separate yellow light for turn or blink the red stop light for turn. Jack's schematic will provide the blinking stop light for turn signal. My schematic actually has the ability to drive a turn signal which is separate, though I know of nobody, including me, that has done that. Most trailers you buy will have a combined stop/turn signal, so if you want to be able to pull things other than just your toad, you want to wire the toad for the most general purpose, which is combined stop/turn.

Quote
Wouldn't it be better to also have a ground wire between the bus and towed vehicle so you wouldn't depend on the hitch for ground?

Absolutely. You should always run a ground wire through your plug and harness.  It's just not shown on the diagrams.


Quote
Are all cube relays configured the same? It would be nice if the terminals in the drawing were numbered so novices, like me, would know how to attach the wires correctly.

See Jack's comments above. I agree with what he said. I think the cube relays are standard, but not 100% sure. Usually, they have a diagram molded on the relay which shows
the terminal numbers and how they work.


Quote
Our bus has separate turn and stop lights and our car has combination stop/turn lights. There is a relay system in our bus now but the turn signals don't work on the car. The tail and stop lights do. I think the PO had the relays set up for a car or trailer with separate stop and turn lights. There are five wires used on the receptacle on the bus and only four wires used on the plug of our car. I thought I would need a converter between the bus and the car but now I think if I change the wiring to match the posted drawing the turn signals will work. If my thoughts are wrong please correct me.

I expect if the PO already had relays in there, you probably just need to modify the wiring on it to match what Jack's shows, and you'll be good. You may also have to rewire the hitch plug, too.
If we get together this spring, I would be happy to help you get this fixed.


craig
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2010, 05:58:44 AM »


If you feel like building something, I've assembled a whole slew of options for converting 24V to 12V on my site:

  http://bus.getdave.com/Docs/12Von24V/




While there is some good info on how to obtain 12v from a 24v bus on your site, it appears that it doesn't address the main issue of toad wiring, which is that most buses have separate turn and stop signals, while most toads and trailers have combined stop and turn lights. That's where the relay system comes in. It combines the separate stop and turn signals on the bus into a single output which goes to each side of the toad to drive the single stop/turn light.

craig
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2010, 06:48:42 AM »

If you have access to the March 09 issue of BCM, there is a very detailed article on the subject.  I included Craig's and Jack' diagrams in the article and also gave resources for the parts.

The "Bosch type" mini ISO relays all have the same connection configuration.  However, there are differences with some having built-in diodes.  I would recommend the latter for the application.

A bit later today, I will post a PDF on these relays on my website.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2010, 07:00:24 AM »

I bought a little box called BriteLights, made by Roadmaster, from Camping World for about $29 if i remember right. Has 4 wires on one side and 2 on the other. Even i was able to figure out from the directions how to hook it up. Grin Been using it for 6 years now with no problems.
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2010, 07:08:35 AM »

Ed, does that unit work with 24 volt to 12 volt systems?  I used some aftermarket systems and they did not last very long.  I don't know if you remember, but I was writing the article when we were staying with you last year.  I had the parts delivered to your address and built the system shown in the March '09 issue right under your nose Grin

The systems that use "commercial" grade relays are quite a bit more robust and about the same cost.

I did post the relay data sheet I created at:  http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/Relay%20data%20sheet.pdf

Jim

I just looked at my article, and I used Craig Shepard's and Sean Welsh's diagrams.  The Welsh diagram shows the wiring for the relays with diodes.  Jack Conrad was also a great help on the article.

The following is pasted from that article:

Digi-Key (www.digikey.com)
Tyco, part number PB682-ND (12V with diode)
Tyco, part number PB684-ND (24V with diode)

Del City (www.delcity.net)
73986 (12V with diode)
73570 wired socket only
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 07:51:32 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2010, 07:47:35 PM »

..which is that most buses have separate turn and stop signals,..

Ah, my bad, that's what I get for glossing over the board.  Sorry to clog up the lines.  Smiley

Maybe at some point I'll put up a simple relay diagram to show how to hook that up.
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2010, 06:42:35 AM »

Jim, you got me wondering!  All of my lights except the headlights are 24 volt.  i dug out the card that the Brite-Lite came on and it does not say anything about voltage and yet it works just fine. i do have some relays that the PO used to run his Jeep lights thru but did not work with my Jeep. I figured one of them was bad, ( i would touch the brake pedal and lose all of the lights) so i bought the box and hooked it up and it worked. Smiley  Don't have the time right now to check this out more as we are busy getting ready to leave in a few days.  This is made by Roadmaster, part # is 732.  Maybe somebody can look it up and tell me why it can not work! Grin
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2010, 11:00:02 AM »

Jim, you got me wondering!  All of my lights except the headlights are 24 volt.  i dug out the card that the Brite-Lite came on and it does not say anything about voltage and yet it works just fine. i do have some relays that the PO used to run his Jeep lights thru but did not work with my Jeep. I figured one of them was bad, ( i would touch the brake pedal and lose all of the lights) so i bought the box and hooked it up and it worked. Smiley  Don't have the time right now to check this out more as we are busy getting ready to leave in a few days.  This is made by Roadmaster, part # is 732.  Maybe somebody can look it up and tell me why it can not work! Grin


Boy, you got me.  I just looked at the instructions (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/pdf/25-1640-04.pdf), and I don't see any way that it should work. If you're running your 24v brake and turn signals into it, it should be putting out 24v combined signals (if it doesn't burn up). They don't actually ever say it's for 12v or if 24v will work, but without a 12v supply, I would think the outputs would be equivalent to the input voltages. Maybe it's more sophisticated than that, but for $40, I doubt it.


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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2010, 11:11:42 AM »

Wait now, I thought that this device was just for solving the brake light/turn signal problem only after the voltage reduction, not the it would do both. 
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2010, 11:17:11 AM »

I built craigs device and installed it in the rear junction box and it does it all to convert 24 to 12 and to mix or correct the signals from bus to towed Jerry
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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2010, 09:47:54 PM »

I purchased a set of magnetic lights from uhaul then changed the pigtails and inners from a pair of 24 volt lights now making them 24 instead of 12.  Works great and easy to do..I set them on the fenders of the trailer with the maginets holding them in place.
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2010, 07:27:17 AM »

Ed, I recall that we did a bunch of looking at your old relay system.  It was kind of hard to get a good look at them, but I think that we figured out that somehow the relays gave you 12V to the toad.  If you hooked up the new converter to something in that old relay system, you might be working with the correct voltage. 

As Dallas said, the converter you bought does not address the difference in voltage. 

If you have a voltmeter, you should check the output at the connection plug.  Somehow it must be OK or you would have a bulb problem.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2010, 07:45:44 AM »

RV safety man I give you the award for posting the obvious.  I have had to re learn all that repeatedly over the years, 'cause I never write it down, I know how to figure it out when I have a relay in front of me, and then I forget again.  Every so often I have gone online to search a nice clear explanation  and yours is by far the clearest I have ever seen.  I think I'll print a copy and post it to my forehead, so everyone else can know this.  BTW I'm joking around but I'm serious, all to often, we (myself included) presume the rest all understand the basics of a system, it's great to have the basics spelt for those not yet in the know.  Cheers, Patrick
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2010, 08:17:08 AM »

Patrick, thanks.  I have been working on an update to that document to include the same relay with a built in diode.  Costs about the same and really prevents some problems in critical circuits with voltage in-rush problems. 

I will get that done today and post it on the site.  Will come back with a reply when I get it done.

I am like you, I have to rethink the relay each time I use it, and I use a bunch of them.  That is why I tried to make the document as simple as possible -- so that I could understand it Grin

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2010, 08:31:42 AM »

Sorry -dual post

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2010, 09:14:31 AM »

Here is another source for a prewired relay socket

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-26-1942-/26-1942

Melbo
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2010, 09:39:59 AM »

I have now updated the relay data sheet that now includes information about the Mini ISO relays with built-in diodes:  http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/Relay%20data%20sheet.pdf .  If you have recently looked at that page, be sure to reload it -- it should have two pages.

Jim

Update:  Melbo, the source you list has a very low cost socket.  If you use that socket, be aware that the wire colors relationships are different from my data sheet.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 09:46:37 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2010, 11:02:03 AM »

Yes Jim

The white on mine is the ground (coil) the black is the signal in (coil) and the red is the NC and the Yellow is the NO and the blue is the power in or common.

When you say low cost that is true but the quality seems to be comparable to other sockets that I paid over two dollars for.

HTH

YMMV

Melbo
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2010, 09:32:16 PM »

Jim. i think you are right, I think i did tap into one of the relays for power, i was kind of looking at it while i was changing filters yesterday but did not really have the time to trace the wires.  I use 12v magnetic lights on the jeep so i must have found 12v power there somewhere. Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2010, 04:45:21 PM »

Hi Jack Conrad,
By using the wiring diagram that you posted earlier in this thread I was able to rewire the relays in our MC8 today and make all the lights work properly on our tow car. Our relays are different than yours so it took a little studying to figure out which terminals to use but I finally figured it out. Another project crossed off the list. Now the one I am dreading is getting the headlights to work well enough to see for night driving.
Thanks for posting the diagram and all the other help you provide, Sam MC8
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