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Author Topic: Starting a cold engine.  (Read 5441 times)
Iceni John
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 12:59:25 PM »

Thank you, Sean.   Excellently put.

Now, if only I can get ABC Bus (just down the street from here) to understand the ash requirements of 2-stroke oils!   I don't think they believe me when I tell them about the 1% maximum for CF-2 oils, and I'm not comfortable having them change my oil until they agree to use what I want, not what they have a drum of in the back of their workshop.

John
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Sean
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 01:11:26 PM »

Now, if only I can get ABC Bus (just down the street from here) to understand the ash requirements of 2-stroke oils!   I don't think they believe me when I tell them about the 1% maximum for CF-2 oils, ...


Sad to say, but shops with any knowledge whatsoever of two-strokes and their peculiarities are now a rarity.

As far as ash content, recent changes have required all oil manufacturers to lower the ash content to less than .1%.  There is, of course, still older product in the distribution channel -- I still find, for example, Delo-400 at Napa with higher ash levels.  But anything coming out now is compliant, as long as it is CF-2.  So if your shop is getting their 40-weight new from a reputable distributor, you should not have to worry about the ash.

And thanks to Clifford for alerting me to the ash content change; I myself had been recommending against Delo-400 until he pointed this out to me (Delo-100 has always been compliant).

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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reelnative
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 03:22:11 PM »

aaa the great oil wars, sean the oil that rotella recommends for our 2 strokes is a really outdated cf2 api cat that was superceded way back when, and if you kept up with your oil weekley guide you would know that any oil with a newer api rating is usable and or better then the last api rating it replaced, i think the newest one came out about 2 to 4 yrs ago and it was an api rating cj4 usable in all and I say all diesels 2 or 4 stroke before that one it was a ci4 rating, I know the 4 in the rating stands for 4 stroke but it can be used in 2 stroke also because they all now are under 1 ash, not to be confused with 2 cycle tho, also if your driving in any weather under 30 degrees detroit says to run a 15-40 not strait 40 or 50.

there is a lot of good reading out there about oils and with the new ultra low sulfer fuel out now you really might want to stop running that oil with only a cf2 api rating, heres a link to rotella theres a bit of good reading here    http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/oem_spec_home.html

hows this for a test too, im gonna drop the oil in my 871 in a few days, it only has 34,000mi on it, it starts on the first revolution every time, ill fill her up with rotella 5w-40 synth and well do us a test to see if she comes apart or not and ill also do an oil anal on it at 7,500 and we all can see how its doing and if ill be able to do another 15,000 on that bad rotella synthedic


you might want to read this too your  cf2 oil will stop being made this yr so your gonna have to start using one of the the better oils out there with a better api rating   http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001637175.cfm?x=b11,0,w


http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert_faq.html
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 06:11:42 PM by reelnative » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 05:43:28 PM »

Good info reelnative, Thanks for providing the information which is crucial for our DD's.

Paul
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Sean
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 07:18:28 PM »

...  if you kept up with your oil weekley guide you would know that any oil with a newer api rating is usable and or better then the last api rating it replaced, i think the newest one came out about 2 to 4 yrs ago and it was an api rating cj4 usable in all and I say all diesels 2 or 4 stroke


Yes, CF-2 was superseded long ago, for certain applications.  For series 92, it is still the only allowable rating.  BTW, the -2 is for two-stroke cycle engines, and the -4 is for four-stroke.  You should not use a Cx-4 oil in a two-stroke unless it also carries the Cx-2 rating -- well, except for the fact that the rating is being discontinued.  More in a moment.  So, no, a CJ-4 (without any other ratings) is NOT recommended in a Detroit 92.

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... 2 stroke also because they all now are under 1 ash, not to be confused with 2 cycle  ,,,


Umm, pray tell, what is the difference between "two stroke" and "two cycle"?  Also, note that sulfated ash content is not the only criterion for the CF-2 rating, and, in fact, Detroit's specs are tighter on sulfated ash than CF-2; IOTW, there were CF-2 oils that did not meet the DD spec for the series 92.

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tho, also if your driving in any weather under 30 degrees detroit says to run a 15-40 not strait 40 or 50.


Please show me where Detroit "says to run a 15-40" normally in a series 92.  I've got the latest pubs from Detroit and MTU and they all still say only single-weight.  There is an exception allowing 15-40 or straight 30-weight for startability -- not under 30° as you suggest, but rather from 0°F to -25°F (below freezing if no starting aids are available) -- but the note immediately following says "These oils must be replaced with monograde SAE 40 lubricants as soon as ambient conditions permit."  IOTW, as soon as it is above 0° outside, you need to change back to SAE-40.    Between 0° and 32° preheating is preferable to changing from SAE-40.  It is on page 2-4 of the publication I linked in my very first response.

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there is a lot of good reading out there about oils and with the new ultra low sulfer fuel out now you really might want to stop running that oil with only a cf2 api rating, heres a link to rotella theres a bit of good reading here    http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/oem_spec_home.html


OK, so when I go to that link, and I scroll down to Shell's recommendation for the 92 series, it shows only the following:
Shell RotellaŽ T1 SAE 40, 50
Shell RotellaŽ T1 SAE 30 (Below 32° ambient)

Which, I'm pretty sure, is exactly what I said above: "Even Shell's own publications do not recommend anything but their conventional SAE-40 and SAE-50 for these engines"

Quote
hows this for a test too, im gonna drop the oil in my 871 in a few days, it only has 34,000mi on it, it starts on the first revolution every time, ill fill her up with rotella 5w-40 synth and well do us a test to see if she comes apart or not and ill also do an oil anal on it at 7,500 and we all can see how its doing and if ill be able to do another 15,000 on that bad rotella synthedic


As I said earlier, your anecdotal evidence is just that.  Anecdotes are not science.

Quote

you might want to read this too your  cf2 oil will stop being made this yr so your gonna have to start using one of the the better oils out there with a better api rating   http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001637175.cfm?x=b11,0,w


http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageServlet?FC=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/ask_our_expert/app_askourexpert_faq.html


I believe those articles were already linked in some of the threads to which I referred you earlier.  Yes, we all know already that API has discontinued the CF-2 rating. Virtually every lubricant manufacturer has announced that they will continue to produce oils to the old standard for those of us who need them.  MTU and Detroit are working on a separate mark to indicate to us that the oil is compliant (anyone know where this stands?  Tom C? Clifford?).  The fact that the API can no longer dedicate resources to a limited market for an obsolete engine does not, by itself, mean that those of us still running that engine should just throw the book out the window -- the reasoning behind Detroit's recommendations still stands.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 08:03:31 PM by Sean » Logged

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Iceni John
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2010, 07:36:16 PM »

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/76/fleet_commercial_engine_oils/76%20T5X%20Heavy%20Duty%20Monogrades%20TDS.pdf

This is the straight 40W that ABC Bus has a drum of, and they (of course) say it's what they've always used for 2-strokes.   1% ash is borderline to me, but I can't find 10 gallons of Delo 100 around here for less than about $15/gal, so I guess it's T5X for me.   Hrumph.

Junkman42 (are there 41 other junkmen out there?):  what make is your pre-oiler?   Tell me more.   Because I do not, and probably never will, drive my bus much or often, a pre-oiler may be good for me.   When I worked for British Rail (RIP), we ran them for at least a minute in the Sulzer 12LDA28 engines in our locos, summer or winter.   Think of it as foreplay before the real thing.

John

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Sean
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2010, 07:50:39 PM »

John, the T5X appears to be completely within specs.  I would not worry about it.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2010, 08:25:16 PM »

Thank you Sean.

It isn't easy...

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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reelnative
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2010, 08:32:32 PM »

here is a link with a lot of diff oil ash and flash point numbers, in both strait and multi visc.
http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_oil_facts.html



as to your question about the diff of a 2 stroke and a 2 cycle motor sean, a 2 stroke motor makes a compression fire stroke every second time round , has a oil pan full of oil and an oil pump to pump oil thruout the motor to lube it,now a 2 cycle motor is a motor that has a closed crank case, uses a pre mix of oil and gas for fuel and lubercation has no oil pan or sup and uses crankcase pressure to send unburnt fuel thru recurlating lines to lub the crank and other such parts,
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2010, 08:43:57 PM »

ok, that's enough.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Sean
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2010, 08:54:32 PM »

ok, that's enough.

Agreed.
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reelnative
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2010, 09:03:10 PM »

 Grin
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niles500
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2010, 11:53:33 PM »

This is "as of 2009" - I don't know of any later bulliten - FWIW

2.2 TWO-STROKE CYCLE ENGINES
The lubricating oil requirements for On-Highway applications of Series 53, Series 71, and Series
92 two-stoke engines are outlined in this section.
See Figure 2-2 for the API Symbol of two-stroke cycle engine oils.
Figure 2-2 API Symbol: Two-Stroke Cycle Engine Oils
Lubricating oil for On-Highway applications for two-stroke cycle engines must meet the
following requirements:
□ 1.0% Ash Maximum as measured by ASTM D 874
□ 7.0 TBN minimum as measured by ASTM D 2896
□ 700 ppm zinc minimum as measured by ASTM D 5185
At ambient temperatures below freezing (0°C [32°F]), sufficient starter cranking speed may not
be achieved to start the engine with SAE 40 grade oils. Where starting aids are not available
or at very cold temperatures (-18 to -32°C [0 to -25°F]) even if starting aids are available,
the use of multigrade SAE 15W-40 or monograde lubricant SAE 30 will improve startability.
These lubricants must possess a HT/HS Viscosity (measured by ASTM D 4741 or equivalent)
of 3.7 cP minimum. These oils must be replaced with monograde SAE 40 lubricants as soon as
ambient conditions permit.

http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/DDC-SVC-BRO-0001.pdf

OK - NOW it's enough - LOL
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2010, 12:00:41 AM »

If comparing what the military does with its' engines, is not a comparison of what we should do with our engines.  First, the military only requires an engine has a life of 2000 hours before overhaul (the equivalent of 100,000 miles).  With the use of good CF-2 rated straight weight sae 40, you should get 5 times that mileage out of your engine.  I know, I had both a 8V-92TA and a 6V-92TA in trucks, and both had their first overhauls at 500,000 miles.  But-yous can runs whats yous wants. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2010, 10:22:14 AM »

That DD bulletin linked by Niles muddies the water a bit with this sentence in paragraph 3.6:

Multigrade oils meeting API CF-2 may be used in Detroit Diesel On-Highway two-stroke cycle
products, provided they also meet military specification MIL-PRF-2104H. Contact Detroit Diesel
for further guidance.

I've never seen a multigrade oil with a CF-2 classification(doesn't mean it doesn't exist), but perhaps this is what the military is using?

Bob
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