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Author Topic: WVO blended with RUP(regular Unleaded Petrol)  (Read 3080 times)
JohnEd
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« on: March 16, 2010, 10:20:33 PM »

Thought you all might like to see what "the other half" are up to.  This is from the Blenders Forum:

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hello to you all

i have been reading some posts on another forum about ring gumming in Di
engines and how they use water injection to steam clean the combustion chamber and clear the gumming
i personally have never had a problem with gumming and put this down to using a home made browns gas generator on my 1995 discovery 300TDi
i have been using it long before i found out about WVO and it works well
turning water into a gas Hydrogen and oxygen which aids the combustion and gives better mpg a certain amount of this gas turns back to water and creates superheated steam the same as the water injection BUT
the water injection system is only used occasionally where as the browns gas generator is running all the time the engine is running and it is this fact that i attribute to me never having a problem with ring gumming just Google browns gas generator and you will find loads of info
and plans to make one loads of designs just depends on how technically minded you are hope this may be help full to someone and now some info on my system

single tank running WVO with a 10 % RUP in summer and 20% RUP in winter
and the gas generator running of a fused ignition live
thats it
ive done over 25000 mls like this and no ill effects at all(the gas generator has been running for about 32000 mls)
and the MOT tester cant understand why the readings on emissions are so low

best regards to you all

Andy


That he is running a single unheated tank is the eye poper for me.  And isn't a 95  300TDi a common ail system?

John
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cody
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2010, 12:35:38 AM »

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Jeremy
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2010, 02:31:09 AM »

Oh No...not Browns gas generators again...Arghh!

Seriously, as Cody says they have been discussed quite heatedly in the past - it's not that they don't exist - obviously they do - and they probably even work - but to such a small degree that they cannot possibly make any useful contribution to economy. Whether there are useful side effects such as the one described in the original post I don't know - I'm familiar with using water injection to reduce detonation in high performance petrol engines, but not in diesel engines running on veg oil.

Incidentally, I have a cousin who runs his Ford Mondeo on veg oil, and he described to me how he carefully measured the 'weight' of the oil by timing how long a known weight took to fall through a measured column of oil, and then taking the same measurement using regular diesel. He then experimented with diluting the veg oil with different amounts of paraffin until the veg oil matched the diesel - so the bit about using 10% petrol makes sense to me.

Jeremy
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 07:49:56 AM »

I think the dry cell type of browns gas generator will have some better results as it can produce more gas and stay cool if designed right. I wanted to put  WVO system on my bus but gat taken by the guy in Seattle and never got the equipment. So guess it is better to keep the money and spend it on fuel. Jerry
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Tom Y
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 09:35:21 AM »

Well I built one for my bus a couple months ago. I plan to use it on my next trip and will let this board know my results. I have had a couple short trips already without so I have somthing to compare it to. I know it won't work and I am stupid but what the heck.  Tom Y
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 11:33:00 AM »

Well someone on this board had a run with one on and claimed almost double the mileage but I don't think that is possible. I am expermenting too and will try some runs on my my 5L diesel PU to get an idea. I have a 34 plate unit and if it works on the PU i will use two of them in series for the bus. so if it is possible to increase the mileage 30 pr cent it might be worth while. Jerry
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 12:35:40 PM »

This is funny, I had this same conversation at lunch with a fellow forward thinker.  I don't see the bus creating enough electrical energy to produce a sustainable amount of gas to see a difference at the pump.  If so then I am all for it.  Sign me up. 

It is easy to make the gas in a garage but making a sustainable amount on the bus while driving down the road will be the problem.  Carry on and let us know what you got.
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 01:24:21 PM »

While this is not ready for bus installation, it is an interesting step.

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/eHydrogen-Solutions-Launches-H-Solaris-Generator-Sunlight-as-Renewable-Zero-Emissions-1133469.htm
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 01:43:18 PM »

Now  I respect the opinions of each of you.  Always have.  My curiosity was with the WVO applications.  I looked in Wiki and it stated flatly that Brown gas was a fraud as far as running a motor vehicle....nuf said.  But this guy isn't "running" the vehicle on the stuff, but is augmenting his fuel.  The degumming is a new one.  I don't think water will degum anything but I don't have a completely closed mind.  Really looking forward to hearing about your discoveries and I mean REALLY.

Thank you each for your comment and regrets that any ever got a drubbing..especially you Cody.

John
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 02:53:35 PM »

From the eHydrogen Solutions website blurb:  "The company estimates 1 liter of water can meet the electrical kilowatt requirements of the average residential household."

Caveat Emptor.

John
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 04:19:32 PM »

From the eHydrogen Solutions website blurb:  "The company estimates 1 liter of water can meet the electrical kilowatt requirements of the average residential household."

Caveat Emptor.

John


To be fair, in theoretical chemical terms it probably can. More to the point is that the company is utilizing a 100-kilowatt solar power plant and are running the electrolysis process at between 800 and 1200°C. Ain't gonna happen in any meaningful way with a 12v car battery. Now with an on-board Mr Fusion unit you might begin to have a chance - after all, we know they can produce the 1.21 gigawatts required to power a flux capacitor

Jeremy
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 06:33:06 PM »

Is using hydrogen as an efficiency booster really any different than using propane?
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 06:52:27 PM »

Is using hydrogen as an efficiency booster really any different than using propane?

well, the idea is that you can "make" hydrogen on your bus from water.... which is nearly free.  Making  hydrogen on your bus is where the nuclear reactor comes in.
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 07:42:36 PM »

From the eHydrogen Solutions website blurb:  "The company estimates 1 liter of water can meet the electrical kilowatt requirements of the average residential household."

This just doesn't seem possible unless additional energy is being added along the way.  There can't be that much usable hydrogen in a gallon of water.

I suspect if these brown gas units, fuel magnets, 100 MPG carbs, etc really worked that some car company would be utilizing them.  I know the inventors of these things say big oil is paying off GM, Chrysler, Ford, et al, but there would be some company like Tesla selling cars that got super MPG if these things worked.
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 08:16:25 PM »

This seems to have lodged on the Brown's gas facet of what the guy said.  That is unfortunate as BG has been debunked as a "stand alone fuel" for many years.  It may provide some benefit as an augmentation to other, proven, fuels.  D is proven.  Bio is proven.  WVO is proven if you heat it and start and stop operation on D.  SVO is also proven as there are bookoo farmers that have run their D equipment on the stuff for the past 25 years that some I have read know about as the farmer was in his family and answered to "Uncle".  Maybe mixing BG with any of these will have a benefit and some here are planing to run that experiment and more power to them..and us.

For me an unproven fuel is "blenders" mix.  I expected that to be debunked in short order and it hasn't been.  It just keeps getting more interesting.  Making Bio is old hat at this point.  Making fuel without going thru any serious process piques my interest.  And not that I am ready to start feeding a DD 8V92 fryer oil mixed with gasoline.  Doesn't that sound like the ravings of a Huh??  Does to me.  Only fly in the ointment seems to be the inevitable need to de coke the engine and un stick the rings.  So far it seems that that fuel is "kinder" to the engine in that there is no knock and it runs a little cooler.  The method of these guys seems to be that if it won't run when it is cold simply up your dilution ratio of gasoline.  There are more than a few of these guys out there.  In fact there are many and that proves nothing....I know.

I need my own D so I guess that is my next step.  This is getting to me.  You guys are having all the fun and making all the stories to tell first hand and in the first person.
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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 05:26:00 AM »

The amount of Hydrogen in water? My son had it burning and some loud booms.

Some around here run light crude straight in their engines, needs to come off the top of the tank.

                          Tom Y
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cody
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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 05:34:20 AM »

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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 05:46:49 AM »

My fear of mixing oil and gasoline to run a in a diesel.  It is my understanding the two tanks are engineered differently according to safety.  Gas is much more dangerous than diesel.  Thus the tanks for gasoline are engineered differnently than diesel.  When we go pour gasoline into a tank designed for diesel nothing happens.  No explosions no sky falling.  The design was in case of an accident not designed for mere driving down the road.  So fear some, and I know thems that do, will have an accident and then test the tank design.  It could be a very very dangerous situation.

I am not an engineer but it makes sense.  I have not compared the two tanks for I don't need to.  I will run BioD all day and night for that matter.  I will run WVO the same, but pour 30% gasoline into my tank and go? Uh-uh!! Not going to do it.  Sure if the world was coming to an end and I had to drive to the other end I would but just to get me from here to over there.  I'll sticl to the restaurant trash.
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 07:18:45 AM »

most major car companies have prototype cars now that are running on hydrogen on demand, those links I had posted in the past and can be googled and found again.

None of the links you provided last time were for cars running on 'hydrogen on demand' - they were all for either piston-engined vehicles running on stored hydrogen, or electric vehicles running on stored hydrogen via a fuel cell. There is no debate about either of those concepts - the discussion that is taking place here is solely about the viability of the 'on demand' aspect.

Jeremy
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cody
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 07:52:21 AM »

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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2010, 07:55:32 AM »

Using simple currently & readily available methods to generate electricity to separate the hydrogen & oxygen bond works, but as has been demonstrated so many times in the lab & in real world conditions, you lose more in inefficiencies than you will ever get back – especially if recombined in an internal combustion engine.
Also demonstrated is the fact that IF the engine is properly tuned to take full advantage of the addition of hydrogen & oxygen, certain emissions are improved along with the gasoline use efficiency.
Another opportunity to be overcome in using an on demand hydrogen generation system is supplying the required volume of hydrogen when full power is required of the engine in real time. One reason is the required size of a storage vessel creates a host of other problems (size vs. storage pressure vs. pump to pressurize it in storage, etc . . . )
One method of on board real time hydrogen generation that I liked used a catalyst that, when put in water, caused a reaction that provided the gas instantly. This system would have to be run similar to nuke fuel rods (but instead of radiation dangers, you'd have excessive fuel premixed in the perfect ratio of oxygen for combustion to deal with).
We all, for the most part, are complacent with the inherent dangers of the fuels we use in basic transportation – mostly because we have been taught & understand safe handling procedures. We need to be careful to understand what the subtle nuances are with some of the ‘new’ fuels if we are to maintain safety.

Real technological progress happens every day. So does the fleecing of people by con men & snake oil salesmen. The problem is recognizing the difference.
We must also be fully aware of the ‘hidden costs’ so that we may make the best choice for our own situation.

BTW, recycling saves something from the landfill, not simply diverts it from one use to another.
Just because it is called ‘waste’ doesn’t mean it is headed for the landfill either.
Around here, many restaurants have contracts with ‘waste veggie oil’ haulers who sell the ‘waste oil’ for use in other products – cosmetics, animal feed, etc. For those industries, if ‘waste veggie oil’ isn’t available, they have to buy new.
Also, around here, hauling more than 5 gallons of ‘waste oil’ is considered "hazardous material" & requires special permits to fully comply with the law. So, there is another issue that must be considered – even if it isn’t regularly enforced.

Ain’t nothing cheap & easy anymore!
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cody
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 08:06:23 AM »

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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 08:22:42 AM »

It seems to be the future fuels will be used by the cars differently than the currently available fuels.

The latest hybrid vehicles are demonstrating having both batteries & gasoline works well in beginning that shift to what will be required for future transportation needs.

I hope they come up with something that replaces the internal combustion engine all together - it's efficiency is only 20% at best.
But with the current infrastructure & the cost to replace it - looks like we're stuck with it for a while longer.

It's gonna cost plenty develop & implement the next viable fuel, we'll get there faster if we don't waste $$ on crap that won't work or is loaded with hidden costs. That is why open discussion is needed - to help each other see more of what is involved.

Does glossing over inconvenient details & hidden costs help anyone looking into a project?
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2010, 08:35:43 AM »

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Jeremy
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2010, 08:42:38 AM »

The http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/hydrogen-on-demand.htm link is just a general page of information about the concept and mentioning various start-up companies proposing to market hydrogen-on-demand systems in the future. The only 'big name' mentioned is Samsung, who it says has a scooter (ie. 50cc engine or less) running an experimental HOD system using sodium borohydride as a source for the hydrogen (sodium borohydride being a hydrogen derivative - ie, there is no question of the hydrogen being produced from water here).

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying that workable HOD systems for cars won't exist in the future - just that they don't now  <sentence removed>

But - I'd love to be proved wrong - feel free to post a genuine link proving that "most major car companies have prototype cars now that are running on hydrogen on demand"

Jeremy



 
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2010, 09:08:04 PM »

Ok, let's try to discuss this respectfully or not at all.  NO inulting one another.  It is ok to disagree.  It is not ok to insult the intelligence of each other.
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cody
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2010, 09:28:09 PM »

The powers that be have made their choice, I have nothing more to say, I have removed my posts.
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