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Author Topic: Getting discouraged, the unthinkable happened.  (Read 3545 times)
scanzel
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« on: April 14, 2010, 06:13:58 AM »

On Tuesday I had my Prevost scheduled for some service work with a local outfit. So I fire it up and head over there. The best way was to take a side street connecting two routes. I go down the highway and get ready to take to side street, prepare to cut it wide because it is a right turn with a power pole on the corner. Just as I start taking the turn a car comes over the small hill and decides to not grant me some of  his lane and I have to cut it quick to get over and guess what happened ? I felt a slight bump thinking I had run up the curb slightly which I could see in the side mirror so I figured I just caught the curb. Get to my destination and get out and find out I caught the last passenger bay door on the power pole crushing it in the center and also pushing in the bay floor about 8 inches. The door I could just replace but trying to fix the floor. Between the mice just chewing through 3 air lines and now this major repair I feel like I have been doomed since I bought this bus. Between working full time, taking care of a house and two mother's etc. I think I should have just gone into hock and bought a SS. No sympathy needed, just need to release some frustration. ALSO If ANYONE KNOWS OF A PARTS PREVOST 1989 AREA LEMIRAGE ON THE EAST COAST, I COULD USE A CARGO BAY DOOR ASSEMBLY. Thank you.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 06:33:26 AM by scanzel » Logged

Steve Canzellarini
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 06:21:39 AM »

I feel your pain, Steve. 

That's tough. It can be fixed, but it's time you could be spending on other things. 

In situations like that, it's best to just stop the bus where you are, and let the other driver figure out how to get around you, and then proceed when he gets out of your way.
If he can't get by you, then he'll soon figure out how to back up and let you through.  I know. Too late for that now. 

But you can still continue with your conversion work and fix the bay floor later in the summer.

We all get discouraged from time to time, and yes, we've all had the bad thoughts that we might have been better off with the dreaded S&S. Just don't let your bus hear you
say that or you really will be sorry!
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 07:00:33 AM »

My 4905 has a bent cargo door. Everyone I have seen either has been repaired in that area, or the door is dented. It does not affect its drivability, and I can't see it driving down the road. My bus, does not reach the artistic plateau of a "coach" like Dreamscape or Sonny's, but it works for me. I have gradually aquired the parts to repair, am just waiting on the free time...............
 Big John
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 07:02:45 AM »

That absolutely sucks rocks!
I've been there & done that too.  Sad

The water is under the bridge now. . . . Could have been much worse . . . Time now to focus on the good. No broken glass, parts easier to get than for some other coaches, etc

Learning to wait for other traffic to move is the hardest thing to do. I've been in several situations where I was tempted to back up or try to squeeze in somehere. What helps me with the patience is asking myself if it few minutes saved is worth the time & $$$ risked?

I once blocked a 4 lane (each direction) intersection for several light cycles while I waited for a clear path - that was nerve wracking to say the least, especially when my passangers were freaking out about getting hit . . . . Grin   Funny now that time has passed. . . .

After enough time, you too will be able to laugh about this fau-pax.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 07:05:53 AM by kyle4501 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 07:03:34 AM »

I'm sure you're not the first one that has met with a non moving pole or other object.

I had thought I was clear when backing up at my father in laws ranch one evening. It was just getting dark and I was backing into a gated area to make a wide swing to exit onto the driveway................well I wasn't! As the rear end was coming around I nudged his well built steel gate upright. I didn't even feel it until I got home and did a walk around. Uuugh!

Fix the door and frame when you can and keep on busin'! Wink Then it''ll be a short memory!

Paul
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 07:17:24 AM »

if you were in a s/s  it would of been totaled.
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 07:28:12 AM »

As Roadrunnertex would say, the magnets are working  Roll Eyes I figure we are bigger and should have the right of way in that situation and I will take it, we are bigger anyway  Grin and less maneuverable. In the marine industry you must yield the right away to larger vessels. I see our buses vs small vehicles the same and to me the same rules apply. They will back up!
Sorry to hear you damaged your baggage door  Sad

Bryan
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2010, 07:46:33 AM »

Glad no one was hurt!

For the future thoughts of the novice driver:

You gotta figure...

There's a reason you pick a certain line around the corner.

There's only so much room between the fixed objects, and you charted a course.

To tighten that line simply as a reaction to some other moving object, motorist or pedestrian is a grave issue that MUST be resisted.

It is about commitment to your estimate for the fixed objects.

The rear wheels must be watched in the curb side mirror for the whole trip around, every time, every corner, to get better, to judge your growing consistency, and to catch your estimating errors.

Otherwise, how do you know how close or how far your original estimate was?

Every corner needs to be taken at a speed that allows for self evaluation and correction.

Looking out the windshield while the rear of the coach is still in the corner is a classic collision waiting to happen.

Thanks for sharing, scanzel. The rest of us will be thinking a little harder on the next few corners.

happy coaching!
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 08:19:07 AM »

Well I can't add much more than the other guys have added but just to say that getting a mind set that we are not driving a car and many of the car type capabilities that allow formation of habits tend to carry into the bus driving world and herein lies the problem. The key for me is to never let traffic flow dictate movement of my bus. Think of yourself as a huge permitted wide load that yields to everything and simply develop patience with the traffic flow (as opposed to expecting traffic flow to have patience with you and your bus). If a car does not yield to you then sit until it is gone. Be quick to hit the emergency flashers to alert others that you are not going to flow like a car in traffic. As with anything, planning is your best friend and if you can avoid tight turns it is best. I have been in situations where I have had to make three lefts to go right because of a hard right turn that I knew would be a pain. Since it is a bus and my goal is leisure, I take the extra time when needed to stay out of trouble and reduce irritation to other drivers. I can't speak as a professional truck or bus driver but this is the way I do it and I personally would certainly listen to what the pros have to say on the subject.
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 08:57:38 AM »

is damage above the rub rail and does it include rub rail? Bob     also ck spare tire page there is a prevo in Montreal being parted out...new skin fron IBP is around 230 for top section..
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 08:59:30 AM by robertglines1 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 11:22:24 AM »

Steve,

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

On the positive side, "you will never do it again".

Make it a priority to fix it, so you won't have to relive your pain "over and over".

I just had a "good one", but didn't involve the Bus.

I was restoring and old commercial compressor for my shop, you know the ones that are big and really top heavy.

Took it apart, replaced anything that even looked used, sanded and painted it Detroit Green, and it was ready to be moved around back.

Well I had been jocking it around my shop with my hand truck by just getting under two of the legs and tilting it just slightly backwards and it would wheel around pretty good, If I was really careful and slow.

Well, I got a little impatient and tried to we'll it towards the door for lift by my neighbors tractor and it came back on me, "try to hang on our let go........I let go"  Glad I did because it weighs almost 650lbs.

Bent the compressor pulley and the crank shaft.....The compressor is shot!

And ya know what......"I will never do that again"

So after the required amount of time calling myself an idiot, and then stopping all the bleeding from the fins that hit me,  I found a new, improved, quieter, 3 stage compressor and will make it better than it was.

Because that's what Guys do, Next Project!

Cliff
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 12:05:14 PM »

Cliff, If Steve were to experience your luck, he will stumble across someone cleaning out his garage & will be paid to take all the parts needed to fix his bus.  Grin

Bummer about dropping the compressor . . . .
Yeah, you called to tell me when you got it, but no call concerning the damage . . . . Hmmmmmm.
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 12:07:44 PM »

... In the marine industry you must yield the right away to larger vessels.


That is, at best, an oversimplification of the ColRegs.  In many cases, the smaller vessel is the stand-on vessel, and especially if it is under sail or human power.  In fact, the only times a larger vessel is stand-on (when it would not otherwise be due to course and relative position) is when she is "restricted in her ability maneuver" or, worse, "not under command."  Otherwise vessels must give way when called for irrespective of relative size.  Plenty of admiralty cases where large vessels were found at fault after essentially obliterating smaller ones.

Quote
I see our buses vs small vehicles the same and to me the same rules apply.

(emphasis mine)

Well, OK, to you maybe.  But not to law enforcement, just FYI.  Most cops will allow for lane incursions and a variety of other liberties in consideration of maneuvering difficulties of a large vehicle.  But the instant another vehicle is involved, they no longer have that discretion.  If you collide with another vehicle, and you are the one over the line, in most states it is automatically your fault.  For that matter, if you being over the line causes them to brake, swerve, or otherwise maneuver to avoid you, you are again at fault for anything that happens to them, even if your vehicle is not physically involved.

Consider also the fact that most law enforcement take a dim view of large vehicles being in places not designed for them.  As a privately titled motor home, you are not required to observe the same restrictions to STAA routes as commercial vehicles.  But that lets you get into places where highway designers and traffic engineers have not planned for your presence.  The burden falls on you to be able to negotiate the roads in this case, and there will usually be little sympathy for any trouble you get into in regards to maneuvering room when you are off the designated routes, especially if there was a more appropriate route to get you to your destination.

I feel the Steve's pain on damage to the bus.  But look at the bright side: he could have been billed for damage to the light pole, or, worse, had he not yielded the right of way, he could have been in a very costly accident.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 12:15:53 PM »

RE" "billed for damage to the light pole"

That reminded me - There is a "high power" pole next to my driveway. I asked them to move it & they quoted me over $10,000!  Shocked
I asked "what happens if I accidently bump into it?" - they said the cost could tripple if they had to repair it as an emergency issue vs. planning it into their schedule.

(Nevermind the fact they planted the darn thing so close to my driveway!)

Steve, that is another good thing - you didn't knock down the pole!  Grin


Like Cliff said - fix it as soon as possible. The only thing worse than curb rash is having to see the results. . . .
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 12:21:03 PM »

Kyle,

A friend of mine, many years ago, was hit by a drunk driver.  The collision sent my friend's pickup truck into a street light pole, knocking it down.  He was luck to walk away -- I saw the damage to the truck.

A short while after the accident, he got a call from the city, who was trying to locate the other driver or his insurance carrier.  They had a bill for over $12,000 to replace the light pole that they were trying to collect.

-Sean
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 12:44:08 PM »

I'm very interested in the state that the quote on lane incursion was based on, in Michigan if the bus finds it no longer has the planned room to make the turn becuase of the action of the opposing driver in the other lane the bus legally can come to a complete stop and wait for the other driver to clear the lane as needed, this is based on the premise that was upheld by the michigan supreme court that the other driver had created an untenable condition by cutting into the projected path of the bus if the bus was already involved in making the manuver regardless of the lane incursions, the court ruled that because of known factors at times the bus or truck has to deviate from it's rightful course and other vehicles in the area must not only make note of the manuver but must make allowances to make sure the bus or truck can safely complete the manuver without placing the public or public fixtures in jepardy.  If the other car was already at the intersection and stopped the game changes tho and the bus cannot deliberately run into the car or make the car move, in that case the bus must wait for the next available opportunity to complete the manuver to insure safely, the case here depends on if the bus was attempting the manuver first and the car moved into it's turnline or the car was already there, both share responsibility to ensure that the safety of others in ensured but to assume liability based on the lane markings isn't generally done in michigan, too many variables can come into play to make the rule ironclad. I don't recall the case in question but the situation was used as a training scenario and involved a semi and a car a lot of officers got the answer wrong, including me lol.
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 01:08:42 PM »

I'm very interested in the state that the quote on lane incursion was based on,

"Most states."  I used to manage a nationwide fleet; we had to be pretty up on standard traffic laws.

That said, I can quote chapter and verse for at least two, California and Washington, and I am pretty good on Illinois and New Jersey.

Quote
in Michigan if the bus finds it no longer has the planned room to make the turn becuase of the action of the opposing driver in the other lane the bus legally can come to a complete stop and wait for the other driver to clear the lane as needed, ...


Well, OK, you are more or less making my same point.  Which is that there is some leeway (whether or not it is written into the state code) to allow large vehicles to maneuver, but they must, as you have written, first stop to allow traffic with the lawful right of way to clear, and they can not start unless they have a clear path.  That's very different than what was implied earlier, a sort of might-makes-right assertion that a larger vehicle automatically has the right to assert itself and that a smaller vehicle must "back up."

Whether or not your state has any written exceptions to allow maneuvering room, you should expect to have to stop dead in your tracks when encountering other vehicles lawfully asserting their lane and allow them to clear out of your way before proceeding.  One may hope that other drivers will show some courtesy and make allowances for large vehicles, but should not depend on it absolutely.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 01:35:51 PM »

I hit the edge of a stop sign on my 1,600 mile journey home.  It took a side clearance/marker light off above one of the wheel wells.  It also scratched the paint a little bit, but the bus needs a paint job anyhow.

I know my bus a lot better now and I doubt I'll hit another stop sign.
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2010, 02:04:27 PM »

To extend the comparison with marine situations that has already been made - the position as Cody describes it is basically the same as how marine vessels are required to behave with respect to each other - and it seems a perfectly sensible approach. No doubt the 'human factor' is a weakness though (ie., car drivers unable to anticipate the maneuvering of large vehicles, or ships being piloted by computer whilst the watch is drunk or asleep).

With my limited experience I wouldn't presume to give bus driving advice - I do remember a distinct point when my attitude to driving my bus changed though; at first I was hyper-aware of how big the thing was, and would consequently get stressed by trying too hard to minimize any disruption I caused to other road users. Eventually I completely reversed that attitude and decided that I had to go where I had to go, and the cars would just have to sort themselves out around me. And, on the whole, they do.

The only minor scrape I have had so far with my bus was whilst reversing into a tight spot - whilst looking intently in the mirrors it's easy to forget just how much the front swings sideways and hits things.

Jeremy
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2010, 04:08:50 PM »

I've noticed that cars tend to get out of the way of my bus.  If I turn on the turn signal and a car is beside me they'll usually slow down or speed up so they don't get crunched. 

When I drive my car I might as well not even use my turn signal.  No other car would ever make room for me to change lanes.  Some will seemingly make a game out of matching my speed so I can't change lanes.
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2010, 04:57:12 PM »

My stepfather started driving semi trucks during WW2 when he was 14 (he lied about his age).  He drove trucks until he had a heart attack about a year before he died. He told me many years ago to make eye contact with the other driver when you need to make a wide turn.  Making eye contact establishes a relationship and they are more likely to work with you. Doing this, I have noticed some drivers will intentionally look away to prevent making eye contact.  When a driver does stop short or in some way accomidates our coach, I always try to give them a "thank you" gesture.  Jack
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2010, 05:02:37 PM »

Steve, the door is easy to fix, the floor takes about a day at the most, are the doors for an 1982 LeMirage the same as your 89?   I have two doors but  "one", I'm keeping a spare just encase.  The floor is a piece of cake to fix there is a angle iron at the bottom just cut it out and replace it! the floor I used alum check plating .100" thick!  keep all of the door hardware those are nice spares to have! the door skin will be the most expensive to replace!   The doors I have do not have the outer skin, most of the skins on my bus.....look like a hockey game used them for a goal!  Another thought take the door off and go to a body shop see if they can pound it out......buy a new door skin!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 05:05:02 PM by muddog16 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2010, 06:05:33 PM »

Skanzel,

Don't feel too bad about it. Last year we were in a  camground and this guy comes over to see our bus. Turns out he works for a big bus company in Calgary as a bodyman. He fixes damage inflicted to buses by profesional drivers. What I'm saying is: although preventable, what happenned to you is not unusual, and is fixable.

Onward,

JC
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »

Agree on making a wide turn emergency flashers on if you get to were other vehicles appear, then stop, until they have moved.

As for large sea going vessels, have you ever see how long it takes to stop one or turn one around? The smaller vessels usually stay way clear of the larger ones.

I once got the passenger bay caught when cutting a right turn too short. I was lucky it only dented the door. I think some one who knows how to use jacks could probably bring the floor back close to original.

John
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2010, 07:18:45 PM »

Steve
Sorry to hear about the little wrinkle. I don't have any door assemblies but I do have exterior skins from my 91. They may have a small dent or crease here or there as I replaced most of mine with new but for the shipping cost, they're yours. They should polish up nicely.
I know how frustrating it is, I had a similar thing happen to me in Fort Myers FL pulling out of the Red Coconut RV park. I made a right turn and just as I did over the top of a hill came an oncoming car. Instead of stopping, he came forward, so I had to crank it around faster or try to stop to keep from hitting him. I did stop but with momentum, before I could stop, it put the stop sign into the coach side in the area between windows above the beltline. I was lucky in that I climbed out, ran back and grabbed the stop sign, pulled on it for all I was worth away from the coach while the wife moved the coach back. Beleive it or not, there were people in the RV park sitting there watching me pull on the stop sign and when we got the coach away they stood up and applauded!! Embarrased me big time. I ended up with only a two inch scratch and small crease that could be filled and touched up. But I do know how frustrating it is and that sinking feeling in the stomach. Look at it this way, you will become more aware of how the bus is built courtesy of this incident, not that you probably wanted to know that much!!! Right now it stinks, later it may turn into a blessing, who knows. Anyway, the offer stands if it will help.

Rob
91 Prevost Le<irage XL
Missouri
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 03:37:37 AM »

Thanks for all the great support. Once I get the bus back from bring serviced I will probably contact a bus company that I have been dealing with, they have Prevost certified mechanics and have them look at it. The door is caved in right at the base below the rub rail which also pushed in the floor area behind it.
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 07:20:36 PM »

Sean,

I did not mean to say that we have the right to run the cars over because we are larger. I guess maybe it's just me. If I am in a vehicle and a tractor trailer or bus is trying to make a wide turn before I get to the intersection I will always give them the right of way out of courtesy. But then again allot of drivers will not. As for maneuvering around the docks when I come into the marina most people will give a 40-60' yacht the right of because as you know are not as quick to stop of turn. That is unless you know how to operate twin screws properly. I have spent many years in the marine industry operating up to 60' yachts. And not on many occasions would someone not give you proper room.

Bryan
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 10:12:46 PM »

Bryan,

I knew what you were trying to say.  But for the benefit of new operators reading this thread, I think it is important to make the distinction between the marine environment and the public roadways.

As you well know, there is no such thing as "right of way" in boating.  The ColRegs even state this explicitly.  On the water, while one vessel may technically be the "give way" vessel and the other the "stand on" vessel, the rules require each captain/watchstander to do everything in his power to avoid a collision, and admiralty law can find you at fault even when you are the stand-on vessel if you could have taken an action to avoid collision but did not.

Traffic laws on the roadways are very different.  There is quite definitely the concept of "right of way' and a driver failing to yield when required is almost always at fault, even if the other driver might have taken evasive action to avoid a collision.  Things are, IOTW, much more black and white.  There is no double-yellow line in a fairway or channel, but there often is on a roadway, and it is almost never lawful to cross it.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2010, 08:13:35 AM »

Hold on, in illustrating another point, Sean's last bit may reinforce a wrong idea.

It might be best to think of painted lines as being there for assigning blame AFTER something has gone wrong.

In layman's terms, the lines are there to provide guidance as to which part of the road you need to leave for the other guy, when he's there.

Typically, the driver of a large vehicle has to go all over the "other" side to make the corner, which is perfectly ok, as long as there is no occupancy of the other side of the road.

There's only trouble if you get into conflict with something while you are over there.

Think of it like running on the nasty neighbour's lawn; we stayed well off it when they were home, ran all over it when they were out.

The crappy driver training we receive on this continent has convinced many that somehow we are not allowed to cross the line under any circumstances. Not to mention a volume of other misconceptions.

Novice bus drivers hit things when driving decisions are based on the mythology that surrounds driving.

If you follow Rule #1, you need no further rules, the rest are principles which support Rule #1:

Rule #1: Don't hit anything.

Simple, eh?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2010, 10:55:10 AM »

In most states (every one I've ever lived in), a vehicle which is lawfully in the intersection has the right of way over other vehicles which may enter the intersection, except for those making left turns, and the vehicle already lawfully using a lane owns that portion of that lane.

RULE ONE is that you MUST do whatever is practical to avoid an accident of any type, whether you have the right of way or not.  More than once while turning, I have stopped and stared at an idiot four-wheeler driver, waiting for them to figure out what they are going to do.  I decided a long time ago that if I have to pick between one accident and another, I'm not going to have the one by myself to avoid the one involving the fool who caused it.
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JackConrad
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2010, 12:20:11 PM »

Too bad all drivers do not have common sense and show a little courtesy towards other drivers.  Jack
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