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Author Topic: Getting discouraged, the unthinkable happened.  (Read 3856 times)
cody
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2010, 12:44:08 PM »

I'm very interested in the state that the quote on lane incursion was based on, in Michigan if the bus finds it no longer has the planned room to make the turn becuase of the action of the opposing driver in the other lane the bus legally can come to a complete stop and wait for the other driver to clear the lane as needed, this is based on the premise that was upheld by the michigan supreme court that the other driver had created an untenable condition by cutting into the projected path of the bus if the bus was already involved in making the manuver regardless of the lane incursions, the court ruled that because of known factors at times the bus or truck has to deviate from it's rightful course and other vehicles in the area must not only make note of the manuver but must make allowances to make sure the bus or truck can safely complete the manuver without placing the public or public fixtures in jepardy.  If the other car was already at the intersection and stopped the game changes tho and the bus cannot deliberately run into the car or make the car move, in that case the bus must wait for the next available opportunity to complete the manuver to insure safely, the case here depends on if the bus was attempting the manuver first and the car moved into it's turnline or the car was already there, both share responsibility to ensure that the safety of others in ensured but to assume liability based on the lane markings isn't generally done in michigan, too many variables can come into play to make the rule ironclad. I don't recall the case in question but the situation was used as a training scenario and involved a semi and a car a lot of officers got the answer wrong, including me lol.
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Sean
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2010, 01:08:42 PM »

I'm very interested in the state that the quote on lane incursion was based on,

"Most states."  I used to manage a nationwide fleet; we had to be pretty up on standard traffic laws.

That said, I can quote chapter and verse for at least two, California and Washington, and I am pretty good on Illinois and New Jersey.

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in Michigan if the bus finds it no longer has the planned room to make the turn becuase of the action of the opposing driver in the other lane the bus legally can come to a complete stop and wait for the other driver to clear the lane as needed, ...


Well, OK, you are more or less making my same point.  Which is that there is some leeway (whether or not it is written into the state code) to allow large vehicles to maneuver, but they must, as you have written, first stop to allow traffic with the lawful right of way to clear, and they can not start unless they have a clear path.  That's very different than what was implied earlier, a sort of might-makes-right assertion that a larger vehicle automatically has the right to assert itself and that a smaller vehicle must "back up."

Whether or not your state has any written exceptions to allow maneuvering room, you should expect to have to stop dead in your tracks when encountering other vehicles lawfully asserting their lane and allow them to clear out of your way before proceeding.  One may hope that other drivers will show some courtesy and make allowances for large vehicles, but should not depend on it absolutely.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 01:35:51 PM »

I hit the edge of a stop sign on my 1,600 mile journey home.  It took a side clearance/marker light off above one of the wheel wells.  It also scratched the paint a little bit, but the bus needs a paint job anyhow.

I know my bus a lot better now and I doubt I'll hit another stop sign.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2010, 02:04:27 PM »

To extend the comparison with marine situations that has already been made - the position as Cody describes it is basically the same as how marine vessels are required to behave with respect to each other - and it seems a perfectly sensible approach. No doubt the 'human factor' is a weakness though (ie., car drivers unable to anticipate the maneuvering of large vehicles, or ships being piloted by computer whilst the watch is drunk or asleep).

With my limited experience I wouldn't presume to give bus driving advice - I do remember a distinct point when my attitude to driving my bus changed though; at first I was hyper-aware of how big the thing was, and would consequently get stressed by trying too hard to minimize any disruption I caused to other road users. Eventually I completely reversed that attitude and decided that I had to go where I had to go, and the cars would just have to sort themselves out around me. And, on the whole, they do.

The only minor scrape I have had so far with my bus was whilst reversing into a tight spot - whilst looking intently in the mirrors it's easy to forget just how much the front swings sideways and hits things.

Jeremy
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2010, 04:08:50 PM »

I've noticed that cars tend to get out of the way of my bus.  If I turn on the turn signal and a car is beside me they'll usually slow down or speed up so they don't get crunched. 

When I drive my car I might as well not even use my turn signal.  No other car would ever make room for me to change lanes.  Some will seemingly make a game out of matching my speed so I can't change lanes.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
JackConrad
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2010, 04:57:12 PM »

My stepfather started driving semi trucks during WW2 when he was 14 (he lied about his age).  He drove trucks until he had a heart attack about a year before he died. He told me many years ago to make eye contact with the other driver when you need to make a wide turn.  Making eye contact establishes a relationship and they are more likely to work with you. Doing this, I have noticed some drivers will intentionally look away to prevent making eye contact.  When a driver does stop short or in some way accomidates our coach, I always try to give them a "thank you" gesture.  Jack
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muddog16
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2010, 05:02:37 PM »

Steve, the door is easy to fix, the floor takes about a day at the most, are the doors for an 1982 LeMirage the same as your 89?   I have two doors but  "one", I'm keeping a spare just encase.  The floor is a piece of cake to fix there is a angle iron at the bottom just cut it out and replace it! the floor I used alum check plating .100" thick!  keep all of the door hardware those are nice spares to have! the door skin will be the most expensive to replace!   The doors I have do not have the outer skin, most of the skins on my bus.....look like a hockey game used them for a goal!  Another thought take the door off and go to a body shop see if they can pound it out......buy a new door skin!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 05:05:02 PM by muddog16 » Logged

Pat

1982 Prevost LeMirage
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2010, 06:05:33 PM »

Skanzel,

Don't feel too bad about it. Last year we were in a  camground and this guy comes over to see our bus. Turns out he works for a big bus company in Calgary as a bodyman. He fixes damage inflicted to buses by profesional drivers. What I'm saying is: although preventable, what happenned to you is not unusual, and is fixable.

Onward,

JC
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JC
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johns4104s
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »

Agree on making a wide turn emergency flashers on if you get to were other vehicles appear, then stop, until they have moved.

As for large sea going vessels, have you ever see how long it takes to stop one or turn one around? The smaller vessels usually stay way clear of the larger ones.

I once got the passenger bay caught when cutting a right turn too short. I was lucky it only dented the door. I think some one who knows how to use jacks could probably bring the floor back close to original.

John
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Skykingrob
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2010, 07:18:45 PM »

Steve
Sorry to hear about the little wrinkle. I don't have any door assemblies but I do have exterior skins from my 91. They may have a small dent or crease here or there as I replaced most of mine with new but for the shipping cost, they're yours. They should polish up nicely.
I know how frustrating it is, I had a similar thing happen to me in Fort Myers FL pulling out of the Red Coconut RV park. I made a right turn and just as I did over the top of a hill came an oncoming car. Instead of stopping, he came forward, so I had to crank it around faster or try to stop to keep from hitting him. I did stop but with momentum, before I could stop, it put the stop sign into the coach side in the area between windows above the beltline. I was lucky in that I climbed out, ran back and grabbed the stop sign, pulled on it for all I was worth away from the coach while the wife moved the coach back. Beleive it or not, there were people in the RV park sitting there watching me pull on the stop sign and when we got the coach away they stood up and applauded!! Embarrased me big time. I ended up with only a two inch scratch and small crease that could be filled and touched up. But I do know how frustrating it is and that sinking feeling in the stomach. Look at it this way, you will become more aware of how the bus is built courtesy of this incident, not that you probably wanted to know that much!!! Right now it stinks, later it may turn into a blessing, who knows. Anyway, the offer stands if it will help.

Rob
91 Prevost Le<irage XL
Missouri
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scanzel
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 03:37:37 AM »

Thanks for all the great support. Once I get the bus back from bring serviced I will probably contact a bus company that I have been dealing with, they have Prevost certified mechanics and have them look at it. The door is caved in right at the base below the rub rail which also pushed in the floor area behind it.
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Steve Canzellarini
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1989 Prevost XL
bryanhes
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 07:20:36 PM »

Sean,

I did not mean to say that we have the right to run the cars over because we are larger. I guess maybe it's just me. If I am in a vehicle and a tractor trailer or bus is trying to make a wide turn before I get to the intersection I will always give them the right of way out of courtesy. But then again allot of drivers will not. As for maneuvering around the docks when I come into the marina most people will give a 40-60' yacht the right of because as you know are not as quick to stop of turn. That is unless you know how to operate twin screws properly. I have spent many years in the marine industry operating up to 60' yachts. And not on many occasions would someone not give you proper room.

Bryan
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Sean
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 10:12:46 PM »

Bryan,

I knew what you were trying to say.  But for the benefit of new operators reading this thread, I think it is important to make the distinction between the marine environment and the public roadways.

As you well know, there is no such thing as "right of way" in boating.  The ColRegs even state this explicitly.  On the water, while one vessel may technically be the "give way" vessel and the other the "stand on" vessel, the rules require each captain/watchstander to do everything in his power to avoid a collision, and admiralty law can find you at fault even when you are the stand-on vessel if you could have taken an action to avoid collision but did not.

Traffic laws on the roadways are very different.  There is quite definitely the concept of "right of way' and a driver failing to yield when required is almost always at fault, even if the other driver might have taken evasive action to avoid a collision.  Things are, IOTW, much more black and white.  There is no double-yellow line in a fairway or channel, but there often is on a roadway, and it is almost never lawful to cross it.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2010, 08:13:35 AM »

Hold on, in illustrating another point, Sean's last bit may reinforce a wrong idea.

It might be best to think of painted lines as being there for assigning blame AFTER something has gone wrong.

In layman's terms, the lines are there to provide guidance as to which part of the road you need to leave for the other guy, when he's there.

Typically, the driver of a large vehicle has to go all over the "other" side to make the corner, which is perfectly ok, as long as there is no occupancy of the other side of the road.

There's only trouble if you get into conflict with something while you are over there.

Think of it like running on the nasty neighbour's lawn; we stayed well off it when they were home, ran all over it when they were out.

The crappy driver training we receive on this continent has convinced many that somehow we are not allowed to cross the line under any circumstances. Not to mention a volume of other misconceptions.

Novice bus drivers hit things when driving decisions are based on the mythology that surrounds driving.

If you follow Rule #1, you need no further rules, the rest are principles which support Rule #1:

Rule #1: Don't hit anything.

Simple, eh?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2010, 10:55:10 AM »

In most states (every one I've ever lived in), a vehicle which is lawfully in the intersection has the right of way over other vehicles which may enter the intersection, except for those making left turns, and the vehicle already lawfully using a lane owns that portion of that lane.

RULE ONE is that you MUST do whatever is practical to avoid an accident of any type, whether you have the right of way or not.  More than once while turning, I have stopped and stared at an idiot four-wheeler driver, waiting for them to figure out what they are going to do.  I decided a long time ago that if I have to pick between one accident and another, I'm not going to have the one by myself to avoid the one involving the fool who caused it.
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