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Author Topic: Pulling the Engine on a 4106 - Pictures & Video  (Read 6819 times)
OneLapper
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« on: April 18, 2010, 09:46:30 AM »

So the time is here!  I found the perfect garage to rent, the old man passed about a year ago and used this garage to build two boats, as well as run his business of restoring and selling old metal machining equipment.  His finished building his last boat at 94, took it for it's maiden voyage, then passed two months later. He sounds like an amazing man and wished that I had met him.  The place is a true reflection of the type of man he was! The shop has a full machine shop attached to it, as well as a wood working shop.  The walls are lined with nuts, bolts, spools of electrical wires, etc etc etc.  Decades of projects, every busnut's dream come true!!

DivineRightsTrip and my buddy Adam met me at the garage at 10am.  We had the engine on the ground by 3:15pm.  That included stopping for lunch and spending over an hour dealing with the worlds most overbuilt tow hitch.  I'll add a photo of that hitch at the end.

The camera snapped a photo every half hour, then we video'd the engine coming out of the bus.

I skipped some of the photos, but here's a good number of them.

This is the garage:



Reading the Engine Removal guide and removing the engine lid with the forklift.



Disconnecting hoses and lines, reading the guide!



Using the forklift to support the hitch while we removed 3 out of 4 bolts on each side enabling us to rotate the hitch down so the engine could clear it.



Using the forklift to support the engine while we remove the four bolts holding the engine cradle to the chassis:



Here's the three minute video of removing the engine:

GM 4106 Engine Removal


Here's the engine on the forklift:



Here's the engine on the overhead lift, now we can easily and safely move it around!  Look how perfectly balanced the engine is when lifted from the hooks on the engine.  The transmission is attached.



Here's a picture of that hitch.  20k miles of towing a 8000lb enclosed car trailer, zero problems.



Look at the rust on that new starter!  I even painted it before I installed it!!!



Beer and bubbly for a job well done!



I'll post more on the project as we move along.  I'm on my way down the shop to pull the tranny and look the clutch over

« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 10:19:50 AM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2010, 10:18:10 AM »

 Very well done...Thank you...Cable
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2010, 10:25:42 AM »

Job well done folks!  Including the photos and video!

And an outstanding shop you found indeed.

BTW, that hitch setup looks like a good plan from here.  Much better than just mounting to the engine cradle.  Just ask Ruthi about what can happen with those.    Shocked
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2010, 11:39:44 AM »

I like the hitch.  The advantage to that design is that if you use an equalizer hitch, you are actually picking up on the engine cradle instead of loading it.
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2010, 12:06:40 PM »

Good job Wink . Never saw a set up like that before, the rust looks familiar LOL Grin. Hope all goes as well on the rebound, keep us to date on the progress, oh, and thanks for the great shots Smiley keep em' comin'. Van.
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2010, 01:32:54 PM »

My only concern is that you just aren't greasy enough  Wink! Looks like your helper dodged most of the acumulated grime also. That probably explains the rust!!!! You need some leaks! Nothing beats a big shop and the right tools.
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2010, 01:36:39 PM »

My only concern is that you just aren't greasy enough  Wink! Looks like your helper dodged most of the acumulated grime also. That probably explains the rust!!!! You need some leaks! Nothing beats a big shop and the right tools.

Yeah, I was noticing that they were a lot cleaner than I would have expected.  Are we sure that is really a Detroit Diesel and not an imitation?   Grin Grin
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 05:40:43 PM »

Nice job with the pictures.

The 94 year old guy will turn over in his grave if you don't get that oil and antifreeze cleaned up quick Smiley  LOL

That hitch pulling from the frame is indeed a good design. Sounds like it caused you a little grief.
 
What all are you doing to it before you re install ?? 
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2010, 05:57:25 PM »

Thanks for the kind comments!

Here are a few more pictures of the hitch.



Another:



One more:



I'd like to be the one to say that you CAN put a hitch on a 4106 and tow a (at least 8000lbs) trailer without issue.  As I recall, 4 or 5 years ago on this forum, I got beat up for suggesting that I wanted to put a heavy hitch on my bus.  I kept it quiet after I built it, mostly to see what would happen after putting some miles on it.  Well, 20,000 miles and it works!  LOL!


« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 06:00:34 PM by OneLapper » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2010, 06:11:17 PM »

With a hitch built like that it worked.  The problem comes when a hitch is only attached to the rear of the engine cradle on a GM bus.  Even then, it is tongue weight that does it.  The linear pull isn't so bad, and the static tongue weight probably isn't too bad.  But the dynamic pounding with a heavy tongue weight is what does the damage.
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2010, 06:24:25 PM »

Geez!  The PO was a hack at best.  One of the selling points of this bus was that the PO installed a new clutch just prior to when I bought it.  I was suspect at best, but Luke at US Coach remembered the sale.  Luke did mention that the guy bought new discs and pressure plate, but reused the flywheel surface plate and intermediate plate.  I'm certain of serveral things now: He didn't resurface either plates, he reused the pilot bearing and TO bearing, and most importantly, he never adjusted the spring release fingers on the pressure plate!!!!!  

Note the uneven wear on the fingers.....



And one half of the pressure plate has heavy heat scoring and the other half still has the machining cross hatching visible.



How's that flywheel clutch surface look to you?Huh?  Barf.



With the unavoidable clutch chatter, look closely at the springs on the friction discs.  Hammered at the very least, but not broken!




There were only 4! bolts holding the transmission to the engine.  The others were stripped, broken or missing.  The PO most likely over tightened the bolts when he reinstalled the transmission.  The movement of the tranny actually cracked the tranny housing where it bolts up to the engine.

Look closely at the 3 o'clock position of the bell housing, right in front of the floor jack.  There's a section that actually broke off and fell into my drop pan!




Ugh.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 04:34:11 AM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2010, 06:26:35 PM »

Who shows up in a dress to pull a bus engine?!? pffttt... silly girls.

Actually, I do look quite clean in those pictures!! Humpf.  Undecided Well, let that be no indicator of how hard I worked, Onelapper can vouch for me!

Hopefully, when the work is done on this bus, Urge will be next to inhabit the shop for his engine swap!! Just.... I need a new engine first! Tongue *sigh*
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2010, 06:43:41 PM »


 With those outfits, we need a video of breakdancing. Cheesy


Glad things went well,  amsing how thing work when they are designed to be repaired. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2010, 07:00:32 PM »

More on the Hitch: (skip if not interested!)

When I designed and welded the hitch, the receiver actually pushes up on the engine cradle with quite some force.  The receiver tube actually bows about a half inch with the amount of force pushing up.  I did that to help offset the dynamic forces of bouncing up and down, and the reduce the stress on the rear cradle uprights.

The hitch it's self was easy to install.  I had a shop machine the end plates, I removed the radius bushing endplates, tossed them, installed new bushings, and installed the hitch end plates and bolted it all down tight.  I took schedule 80 tubing, cut a 2x2 hole through it, welded a four foot section of solid 2x2 stock so that the long section pointed toward the back of the bus, then slid the receiver tube over the 2x2 stock, welding the dozen holes I drilled in it to mate the 2x2 stock and the receiver tube, then I welded the butt seam between the receiver tube and the round pipe.  I then welded gussets between the tube and the outside of the receiver tube.

I the slid the tube into the end plates from the inside, one side at a time.  Then I used a huge jack to pre-stress the receiver tube, and welded the tube to the end plates.

I then took 1/4" strap steel and bolted the end of the receiver tube the the engine cradle under the bumper.  Done!

« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 04:36:13 AM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2010, 07:07:36 PM »

Sounds like a great hitch construction!  And you experience with it certainly speaks well of its effectiveness.  Sounds like a great article for the magazine to help a lot of GM bus nuts.  (hint hint)
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2010, 07:18:41 PM »

Nice job with the pictures.

The 94 year old guy will turn over in his grave if you don't get that oil and antifreeze cleaned up quick Smiley  LOL

That hitch pulling from the frame is indeed a good design. Sounds like it caused you a little grief.
 
What all are you doing to it before you re install ??  

My engine has EPIC proportions of blow-by.  It's had a vibration that's gotten progressively worse over the last few years.  That hasn't stopped me from using it to tow my race car around the country, but I'm also towing my mobile garage with me, so I figured I'd have the tools to fix it if something broke.  Well, it never broke! It just smoked more and more.  It smoked so bad, some witch in a Mercedes 240D gave me the finger when she passed me!!!  A 240D!!!! I knew it was time to replace the engine after that gesture.

The transmission actually broke first, so that made it unpleasant to drive.  I've had a replacement engine waiting to go in for quite a while, so here we go!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 07:55:13 PM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2010, 07:44:12 PM »

Who shows up in a dress to pull a bus engine?!? pffttt... silly girls.


Not many people could get away with that.  Good for you
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2010, 07:52:52 PM »

Good looking 06, Do not put a new engine in without being sure the harmonic balance is new (Detroit recommends a new balancer on every rebuild) I learned this lesson by the new engine vibrating like mad, its easier to put a new one on with the engine.

John
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2010, 08:15:18 PM »

Good looking 06, Do not put a new engine in without being sure the harmonic balance is new (Detroit recommends a new balancer on every rebuild) I learned this lesson by the new engine vibrating like mad, its easier to put a new one on with the engine.

John


Yikes. That's good to know.  I'll have to price one out.  The engine I bought was rebuilt with a replacement short block, but I wonder if the NY Transit Authority would put a new harmonic balancer on it.  I won't even know how well it runs until after I install it!  I have run it on the shop floor for a minute or two.  It fired up immediately and didn't smoke or have blow by.

Here's a crappy video of the engine running:

Detroit Diesel 8V71


I warned you!  Cell phone video.
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OneLapper
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2010, 09:03:17 PM »

OneLapper, I have been told that the 8V71 does not require a vibration dampener. That information came from Southern Oregon Diesel some years ago. On the other hand, the 6N71 does require one.

For what it's worth.

Tom Caffrey
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2010, 09:45:01 PM »

That clutch looks way worse then the clutch out of my Kenworth with 1.2 million miles on it (I never did a clutch job).  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2010, 04:40:03 AM »

That clutch looks way worse then the clutch out of my Kenworth with 1.2 million miles on it (I never did a clutch job).  Good Luck, TomC

The clutch was a drag, literally! The pilot bearing is seized, so you can imagine how long I had to wait between shifts.  Tonight after work I'll mic everything up and see if the plates can be resurfaced.  This shop has a resurfacing machine in it, too! Just need to learn how to use it!!
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OneLapper
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2010, 07:29:15 AM »

What are your thoughts on a V730 auto? It would make it a bigger project though. Cutting a larger hole in the bulkhead, probably a bigger radiator, etc. Nimco sells good take outs for ~ $1200+ship. For those reading this post another way to pull the engine w/o a forklift is to crib up the cradle (with wheels if possible or a way to put a pallet jack under it) and then pull the bus away.
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2010, 07:32:01 AM »

Always a good day when friends show up & actually help.  Grin

My only concern is that you just aren't greasy enough  Wink! Looks like your helper dodged most of the acumulated grime also. That probably explains the rust!!!! You need some leaks! Nothing beats a big shop and the right tools.

Yeah, I was noticing that they were a lot cleaner than I would have expected.  Are we sure that is really a Detroit Diesel and not an imitation?   Grin Grin
If you know what you're doing, you don't have to rub all the grease off on your clothes  Wink

Dark clothing also hides grease.  Grin

The thing that causes me the most concern with towing is the fatigue effects on the frame resulting from the hitch loads. Constant inspections of the susceptible areas should provide adequate warning so a repair can be effected before failure.

Then there is the moment added to the rear of the bus & the chassis' ability to handle the added loads - this has lead to buckled floors in other coaches - but, how much was a result of corrosion & other abuses in it's past?

Good luck with the reinstall.
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2010, 04:56:58 PM »

Onelapper,

While you have the bulk head exposed check for cracks, the 06 model did have problems with cracking,

On the no balancer on the 8v71, I am not sure if they have one or not, but if I were you I would check,

John
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2010, 06:26:55 PM »

Onelapper,

While you have the bulk head exposed check for cracks, the 06 model did have problems with cracking,

On the no balancer on the 8v71, I am not sure if they have one or not, but if I were you I would check,

John

As far as I can tell, there are no cracks in the bulkhead, and no signs of any previous repairs to the bulkhead!  That's a good sign.  I still have yet to pressure wash the engine bay, so I can't say for 100% certainty that there's no damage, but I looked closely and didn't see anything alarming.

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OneLapper
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2010, 06:56:35 PM »

The clutch is a mystery, but the numbers don't lie.

I brought the flywheel surface to a machinist and he didn't think that he'd be able to resurface it because of the high, or "hot" spots on it.  It's .0430" under spec as new.  That's not a big deal because the manual states it can be cut three times, but each time a "shim" needs to be installed between the plate and the flywheel when it's installed.  I found one shim which measures .0320", so I take that it's been cut once and if I can find another shim or two, I'd be able to have the shop cut almost .0500" off and still have it within spec when installed. The machining will cost $150-175.  A new plate is $230 plus shipping, say $250.  

Another picture, the flywheel plate is on the left



The friction discs are both under spec by .0100".  They could be reused I imagine, the only damage is the worn spring hubs from all the clutch chatter.

The pressure plate was on the new side, like the friction discs, but since the finger heights were not likely adjusted, it's too far gone.  Heavy heat cracking on only one part of the surface.



Looks like a completely new clutch is needed.  Yikes.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 07:42:23 PM by OneLapper » Logged

OneLapper
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2010, 01:07:01 PM »

Cool pics and video! Thanks for sharing!
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2010, 12:53:41 AM »

Thank you OneLap for some great pics. and commentary.

I hope you can come thru with an art in the BCMag on the hitch fabrication, design and install.

Thank you,

John
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2010, 01:13:13 PM »

Onelap, for an extra $60 or so I would get a new flywheel, the rest of the clutch rebuild should be $290 or so.

John
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2012, 01:17:51 PM »

where did you get the Hitch
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2012, 08:31:31 PM »

he made it. it's written in the post....
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2012, 06:12:11 AM »

where did you get the Hitch


Tanman,

Yup, as eagle19952 pointed out, I built the hitch.  Take a look on the first page of this post, 3/4 of the way down, I created a new reply just about the construction of the hitch.

I'll say that it has worked really well.  I've had zero issues with it.  Keep in mind, I still use a weight distribution setup......

Mark
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2012, 07:30:08 AM »

The tongue weight is what you need to keep at a minimum on a GM they will tow the 7,000 lbs Greyhound did it for years and they were not tied to cradle anywhere 

I have a hitch from a Canadian GM that we are going to install this winter on a GM 4106 there is really not that much holding the cradle on GM kinda scary to me lol

good luck
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« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2012, 05:01:05 AM »

There may be more info on here about the hitch, but it sounds like he built it homemade and it works well for him. I am not sure if the test of time or circumstances can say it's all good yet. I honestly do not know what is standard with doing a mod like that. Something that is untested or engineered for that application installed on a 25k lb bus plus a 8k lbs trailer that is rolling on the interstate at 70 mph with a lot of other folks is a scarey thought. Just breaking it or cracking the bulkhead is minor, but losing control on the highway is another matter all together.

I know there is a lot of things like that on the highway. I have a 4106 and I have went through the process of looking at my towing options. The only safe option I could see was towing with a tow bar with all four tires on the ground. Even with a tow dolly you still have the tonge stress.

Most of you guys have a lot more years at this and know a hell of lot more than me. This forum is full of self converters and doing something like a hitch modification is one of the things that are done. So what is the right way to do that mod? Has an engineer done the calculations on what is safe with theses old 4106's?

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