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Author Topic: DDEC II and SilverLeaf (subject revised to reflect content)  (Read 4625 times)
rv_safetyman
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« on: April 22, 2010, 08:02:13 PM »

Note, I have changed the title to reflect that this thread has drifted into a very useful discussion on DDEC II EPROM and software levels that may be needed to talk to SilverLeaf (and Pro-Link) for certain parameters.  Changing the subject will better reflect the contents in the search feature.  Jim 4/26/10

I have been able to find a source for the connecting plug to the aldl 12 pin data port used on DDEC II engines.  Up until now, that part has not been available - at least I could not find a source.

That will let us easily mate a SilverLeaf product to a DDEC II engine without cobbling the wiring.  

I would like to do a test to make sure that the cable works as expected.

So, the question is, does anyone know of a running DDEC II in the Denver area?

Thanks, Jim
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 07:51:47 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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stevet903
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 06:46:23 AM »

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.obd2cables.com/products/obd-cables/obd-i-cables/cable-daewoo-gm-12m-to-open-end-6ft.html

Steve
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 08:37:04 AM »

Steve, that is the one that I found and we are evaluating.  SilverLeaf is modifying the cable to connect to the JIB of the VMSpc.  Now, I need to find a test site to make sure all is well.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Greg Roberts
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 10:52:26 AM »

I don't have a silverleaf setup yet but I do have a DDEC II on my eagle 20 and have a PC I can set up and test it for you. I am south of you in New Mexico (Carrizozo area) and would be glad to give it a go with some of my summer trips if I am not too far from you.
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Check out my Eagle 20 here: http://photobucket.com/GregRobertsEagle20
stevet903
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 05:58:07 PM »

Sorry, I misunderstood the post and thought you were looking for the cable.  I have that cable and a VMS 200 and it works great.  Hopefully this info will save you some time getting it working - On a DDEC II engine, you will find that you will need to look at PID 244 for the odometer reading on the VMS side.  On the DDEC II side, you will find that there is no odometer data if it is an early model (my 1989 had no data and my Pro-Link couldn't read a valid software version).   Detroit Diesel has a PROM upgrade that will upgrade you to the final version of the DDEC II software which is 154.  The previous version was 141, which might work as well.  The upgrade contains a new PROM that goes inside the ECM and a kit to hold it down.  The part number for this is R6171618 and costs about $100 with a $50 core charge.  It comes up as a PROM stabilizer kit, but it actually contains the new PROM as well.  Let me know if you need more info on replacing the PROM inside the ECM...
Steve
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 07:14:46 AM »

Steve, what great information!  You saved me having to do a quick confirmation test.

In the past I have sent the aldl pin out drawing to folks and tell them how to either fabricate a 6 pin data port for connecting to the SilverLeaf cable, or tell them that they have to hard wire the system.  When I found that cable, I was really pleased.  I gave the information to Martin and he placed a test order with them.  They just completed the first sample on Friday.  Given your experience, I will not need to do any testing.

I have read where some folks are not able to reliably pick up speed (and I believe distance as well) with some DDEC II computers.  I think you have provided the information that may resolve that issue.  I would like to get more information on the PROM conversion.  I will forward the information to Sean, as he has had problems with his DDEC II in his Neoplan.

Greg, thank for the offer.  My goal was to briefly hook up my computer to an engine just to make sure that the new cable was working and that the fit of the connectors was good (some off-shore connectors leave a lot to be desired).

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Sean
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 05:46:17 PM »

Steve,

As Jim says, I have been having problems getting odo data out of my DDEC-II.  A complete ECM swap did not fix it, but, of course, I have no way to know if both ECMs had older PROMs.  I believe mine does have the retainer clip, but I am not certain.

Is there a way to tell if I have an older PROM without pulling the ECM?  I have both a VMS display and a DDR (the old one, not the Pro-Link).

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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stevet903
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2010, 06:02:56 PM »

I pulled my DDR out tonight (raining yesterday!!) and looked to see if it would read the Prom level in the ECM - no luck.  I think it is because my DDR is older than the ECM software -the DDR software version is 88.04.04 (comes on screen when the unit powers up).  I'm going to guess that the DDR software is a 1988 version and the DDEC version is from the mid-90's.  The DDR also won't read the miles on the odometer function.

I went through every PID with my VMS 200 and I couldn't find any PID that matched the ECM software version.

I have a Pro-Link with a 2009 version DDEC II/III cartridge.  The software level is correctly shown when you go to View Calibrations - SOFTWARE LVL.

I need to take a picture of the engine and ECM in the next few days and I will write up the best way to remove it and get to the PROM.

Steve
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Ace
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2010, 06:26:35 PM »

Ok guys, educate me a little! I have a v ms120 and have had nothing but problems with it ever since the purchase! Wrong milage as in distance travelled and can never set it the same as my gps as for mph. I can lock in my cruise say at 68mph and the box says its locked in at 68mph but it says I'm actaully going 70 as an example! I have after many calls to Martin and his crew changed some factors but still not dead on which throws off mpg calculations! It either reads just high or just low, never right on! It also shows my voltage to be 13.2 13.5 13.7 and every once in a while it will show 12.2 and bring on a red light! Voltage on bus never drops! No faults or codes show up on pro-link or VMS so why the red light? Is there any way to correct the speed and or MPG! My default was at 110% and was told to go to 94 and then 117 and have slowly worked my way back down one percent at a time to 110 but still off! Short of going on ebay, is there anything else to try first?
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Ace Rossi
Lakeland, Fl. 33810
Prevost H3-40
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2010, 06:40:10 PM »

First of all, I have change the subject of this thread to better reflect the latest content.

Steve, I was hoping you were still following this thread.  I stopped in at the DD dealer today and they still show that the R6171618 part is still available.  He said the "walk in" price is $124.  I did not ask about a core charge.  The guy was not at all willing to offer much help.  I should have asked to look at a better description, but he was sure it was a DDEC II update item.  Said he had not ordered one on probably 7 years.  

I did a search and found the part at:  http://www.dieselpartsdirect.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=R6171618  A bit cheaper.  

I sure wish I could get a better description/picture of the part.

I was a little lost on your last post.  If I understand it correctly, you have made this modification.  However, I want to make sure that the modification did, indeed, solve the SilverLeaf/Pro-Link odometer data issue.  As you point out, SilverLeaf will not read the ECM software.  Where I get lost is whether you used the Pro-Link to find the software level.  If you have done that, I would like to know the version you have.

When you write up the procedure, I would be interested in how hard it was to open up the ECM.  Also, if you have a picture of the part, I would love to see that as well.

If others are able to read the odometer with their DDEC II, I would like to know what year your ECM is.  Conversely, if you have problems, let me know the year as well.  I would like to hone in on the year/version where the issue is resolved.  

Thanks for all of the great information.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
rv_safetyman
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2010, 07:03:50 PM »

Ace, we were typing at the same time.  You have tried the correction factor option, but it sounds like somehow the ECM is not reporting consistent information.  I am not trying to absolve SilverLeaf, but it only reports the data it is given (factored by a correction factor if you need it).

If you are up for it, we need to sort out the culprit.  If I understand it, the distance information is one of the inconsistent pieces of information (MPG derived from that information).  So to test that, set the correction factor to 1.0 and record the ECM miles (from Pro-Link) and the reset or record the miles on the SilverLeaf.  Then drive the bus at least 25 miles.  If at all possible find a way to clock the miles via mile markers or some mapping/GPS program.  Then look at the ECM miles (Pro-Link) and SilverLeaf and compare them to the actual miles.  If you have the correction factor at 1.0, I think the SilverLeaf and ECM/Pro-Link data should be the same.  If they disagree with the actual miles, then you will have a correction factor for the Silverleaf.  If the ECM and SilverLeaf miles do not agree, then we have too address possible problems with the SilverLeaf.

What bothers me is that it sounds like something in the system is fluctuating  (symptom:  voltage changes).  I have to wonder if that is a symptom that needs to be addressed.  As I recall, you have had voltage problems in the past.  The SilverLeaf is reading the voltage at the ECM.  It might be worth doing some driving with the Pro-Link and see if the voltage varies on that unit.  If it does, you need to get a handle on the voltage issue, before we tackle anything else.  The obvious first step is to make sure the grounds to the engine and ECM are good.  Might be worth running a temporary ground from the battery to the ECM.  Next, if the Pro-Link verifies that the voltage is fluctuating, you need to revisit the issue you had before. 

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
stevet903
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2010, 08:17:02 PM »

Jim - I could never really find any documentation on-line or at any Detroit dealer as to what changed with what versions of the ECM software.  All I know for sure is that on my early 89 ECM, which I could not read a software version with a Pro-Link, did not have odometer data.  I bought and installed the R6171618 part, which is a PROM and a triangular shaped holder that bolts the PROM down to the circuit board in the ECM.  This PROM updates the software to the last release of the DDEC II software which is 154.  This software version makes the odometer part work properly with the VMS.

So to make a long story short, the R6171618 installs the 154 version in the ECM, and this makes the odometer work.  This can be verified with a Pro-Link.

As for Ace's problem(s), I think he has 3 separate issues. Does you have a DDEC II engine?

If you turn on the alarms in the VMS, it will alarm for a variety of reasons.  One is voltage, which is read from the ECM.  On most DDEC installations there are a pair of wires going to the batteries and providing power to the ECM through the six wire connector.  (example here:  http://www.tpub.com/content/constructiontractors/TM-9-2320-364-20-1/0726280216.htm)  All the connections need to be clean and corrosion free.  Some installations have fuses inline that can corrode as well.

MPG is derived from the odometer on PID 244.  The VMS needs to use that - my VMS 200 needed special programming to change this.  (Thanks Martin!!)  I have heard, but don't have any real data to back it up, that some ECM software versions prior to 154 did not reliably record the odometer and engine hour data. That would definitely make your MPG vary!!  This problem should be curable by doing the PROM update and by making sure the VMS is looking at PID 244.

As for the cruise control issue, I'd look at the ECM calibration with the Pro-Link.  The DDEC II ECM needs to be programmed with the calibrations for the Vehicle Speed Sensor.  I think you need the axle ratio, the tire revolutions per mile, and some other data.  It should be covered in the Pro-Link manual.  If you have tires that are different than the OEM tires, with a different revolutions per mile, it could mean that the speedo says 70 MPH while the ECM is calculating that the speed is 68.  I can search this info out if you can't find it.
Steve
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luvrbus
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 06:47:41 AM »

The problems you guys are having trying to get the I and II DDEC to read looks like a upgrade to a III or IV would be better I don't know much about the SilverLeaf but a Pro/Driver will not work on a I or II DDEC.
 Only good thing about a DDEC I is the Prom can be rewritten so says the guys at Stewart and Stevenson


good luck
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 07:57:04 AM »

Clifford, you make a good point.  DD does offer an upgrade kit from DDEC II to DDEC IV.   I don't recall seeing one for DDEC I.

When it comes to DDEC I, all bets are off.  It has two computers that have to talk to each other and was developed before SAE standardized the technology.

As I recall, the upgrade is close to $2K.  Most folks will not go that route unless there is a compelling reason. 

Steve, I am getting closer to understanding how the part you mention works.  It sounds like the PROM you install is only to TRANSFER the software/firmware to the ECM.  It sounds like it does not become an operating part of the ECM.  Further, the core charge suggests that it is removed and returned to DD.  Am I close?

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
stevet903
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 06:49:29 PM »

I would agree that $2K to go to DDEC III just to make your Silverleaf work is a bit much....

PROM stands for Programmable Read-Only Memory.  It is essentially a computer memory chip that can be programmed, or burned, with a particular program for a specific application.  A PROM does not lose the program when power is lost, and can't be changed after it is burned.  These features make it perfect for distributing firmware for an ECM.  The engine operating parameters are burned into the PROM and the PROM is installed into a socket in the ECM.  The PROM program tells the ECM to inject XX amount of fuel at 2000 rpm and 12 psi of boost, for example.  If you want to change that parameter, for example, to inject more fuel at that point to make more power, a new program must be burned into a new PROM, and that PROM installed into the ECM.  On a DDEC II ECM, there is a socket on the circuit board that the PROM plugs into.  If you currently have a version 147 PROM, you must remove the 147 PROM and replace it with the version 154 PROM for the upgrade.  The 147 PROM gets returned to DD for the core credit.

Here is a link to a diagram, though not very good, that shows an exploded view of a transmission ECM.  It is very similar to a DDEC ECM.
http://www.tpub.com/content/hummer/TM-9-2320-387-24-1/css/TM-9-2320-387-24-1_801.htm

Figure 5 and 6 in this link is a close up view of the PROM and socket.

http://www.campbellsci.com/documents/technical-papers/21x-prom.pdf

 Hope this makes it a bit clearer....
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