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Author Topic: AutoShift Problem -- update  (Read 4518 times)
rv_safetyman
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« on: May 05, 2010, 05:08:41 PM »

This is an update to the problems described in this thread:  http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=15496.0

I have received many wonderful emails and phone calls asking how I am doing and how things are going.  Well, I have not been sitting around eating bon bons Cheesy

I have had the luxury of having a bit of time before our next trip, so I have been approaching this issue in a bit of a round about path.  So, try to follow along.

Many of you know that I have had a big charge air cooling problem.  My original design was to use four high capacity electric fans to force air through the CAC.  That did not work well.  If I had a big side wind on that side, things were fine, but driving up a big hill caused temperatures well above acceptable.  I think the big issue is that the electric fans could not overcome the static pressure caused by pressure under the bus.  I have been gathering parts to install a hydraulic fan.  I had made a pact with myself that I would not make another trip until I had the hydraulic in place.  

How the heck does that fit with the transmission trouble shooting?  Well, the transmission would throw a fault code within the first few yards of driving.  So I thought that I could do the initial trouble shooting in the shop.  I had to get the drive axle up on blocks.  I have great hydraulic jacks installed on both the front and rear of the bus and it made sense to use them to lift the bus.  Problem was, I have only hooked them up to a remote 120 V power pack and that was really jury rigged.   SO (are you still with me?), it just made sense to work on the fabrication of all of the hydraulic system components needed for both the jacks and the fan.  That was no small task (I will bore you in a month or two with an article in Bus Conversion Mag.).

OK, today I got the hydraulic system working (new pump works great with the power steering and the fan/jacks).  The bus drive axle is up on blocks.

But the real bottom line of this preliminary report is that I was able to replicate the fault code late this afternoon!!!!  Now I can pick away at the troubleshooting process.

Stay tuned.

Jim
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 05:12:33 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 05:58:14 PM »

on edge of seat!!will definitely file result in future troubleshooting
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 06:29:28 PM »

Hey Jim, can you ever really go out to the bus and end up working on the initial problem without moving,fixing,finding,searching,sidetracking,etc? I will be very interested in how you solve your cooling especially how you pull the air in and send it back out. How the air flow over under and around these buses  and how the coolest air is sent thru the cooler and radiator is somthing i have been wondering about. Good luck on your trouble shooting and thanks for keeping us updated.
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 09:11:21 AM »

Jim-I know when I installed my auxiliary trans cooler with electric fan, I first tried to suck in air from the outside, which didn't work since the little electric fan was trying to work against the big radiator fan.  Then I changed the direct to pushing air from the engine compartment outside, and it works well.  I know that the engine compartment is hot, but it is still cooler then the radiator coolant.  Just a thought if you might want to try that also.  Good Luck, TomC
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 10:59:19 AM »

Hi Tom.

I went through all of that - blowing in and out.  Finally built an enclosure so that the engine fan would not impact the flow.  With that setup, I have the fans pulling outside air in and exhaust out the bottom of the bus. 

I think that there is some pressure under the bus.  Partly from the engine fan, but also because of air flowing under the bus when your are going down the highway.  I have the material to put a dam right behind the axle, but have never gotten around to that project. 

I think that the electric fans are just not good if there is any pressure on the downwind side.  They work fine on the front of a car, since the natural air flow helps them.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2010, 11:13:55 AM »

It's generally felt that fans on the front of a vehicle only are useful under a certain speed, usually around 30 mph.  Over that natural airflow is far stronger than the fans could ever be.  I think, based on some work I've done, that the air pressure under the bus should be a fair bit lower than at the rear side of the bus, and that the air pressure behind the bus will be lower still, but quite chaotic.  If under the bus isn't working, you might try flowing from the side of the bus to the rear of the bus.

On my race cars we often pull air in from the sides and exhaust into the engine compartment, which is open to the rear or to the sides and is quite  low pressure.   We never run fans at all.

Brian
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2010, 03:47:56 PM »

OK folks, here is where we are at.

First I will discuss the original transmission ECM (the one that put us on the side of the road).  I had done quite a bit of trouble shooting on it when we were parked and it looked like it was toast.  It would throw a code a code SID 40 which is a gear selector motor fault.  However, it had some other symptoms that were strange. When I followed the trouble shooting to the end, it said that the ECM had failed.

Next, I put an ECM in from a transmission I had in the shop (had to make a trip home to get it Angry).  That was the one that would only go a few feet in the starting gear (2nd) and then throw a code PID 161 (input speed sensor).  When we were on the side of the road, I contacted our local Roadranger technical person.  We did a lot of trouble shooting and neither one of us could figure out what was going on.  In spite of the input speed sensor code, I could watch the input shaft speed on my Pro-Link and it was reading correctly (consistent with engine RPM).  That was when we gave up and called THE HOOK Angry

Today, I started trouble shooting the ECM that was throwing the PID 161.  It did throw the same code every time I engaged the clutch and reved the engine a bit to simulate taking off.  I replaced the input speed sensor with a spare I had and got the same result.

Then I put in an ECM that I had borrowed from a friend.  That ECM seems to work just fine.  I got it to shift a gear (not easy when the wheels don't feel the inertia of the bus), but it seems to work just fine.

Just to be sure, I put the original ECM and it again showed the same failure traits.

So, tomorrow I will get the bus off the jacks and take it for a drive with the borrowed ECM.  At least I hope I will, since there may be some snow at our elevation.  I expect it to work fine.

I will contact the Roadranger person and see if he will reprogram the ECM to see if it is a software glitch.  The person I got the transmission from was having some problems, but I think it was related to a harness problem.  He did not describe a problem like the one I am having.

Tom C, if you are out there, would you mind seeing what the transmission ECM (generation 1) goes for?  I am afraid to ask Shocked

Jim

« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 03:54:11 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2010, 05:53:26 PM »

Project will be on hold for a few days.

We just learned that a very special relative just died after surgery.  54 years old and one of the best people I have ever known. 

We will be heading out to Iowa in the car tomorrow or Sat.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 05:59:03 PM »

Jim,

That is very sad to hear. I am sorry. We will keep all of the family in our prayers during this tough time.

God bless,

John
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 05:24:49 AM »

Jim,
   Our condolences to you and your family.  Give Pat a big hug from us.  We will keep ya'll in our prayers.  Have a safe rip, Jack
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 08:40:03 AM »

We are back home.  Welcomed by snow!!!  We have over 4 inches on the deck – it is May for crying out loud!!!

Thanks so much for the kind words here, via personal email, phone calls, cards, etc.  It was a very tough trip.  A real roller coaster of emotions.  

Now, back to the AutoShift problem.  Off-line I wrote to TomC to see if he could find out how much the ECU replacement would be (well over $2K  Shocked).  In preparation for that request, I went to my parts manual (electronic version on my computer).  It showed three different part numbers - one each for the different gear ratio sets in the transmission.  

Monday night as my tired head hit the pillow, the light went on!!!  I am pretty sure that my replacement ECU is for a different gear set than my transmission.  That would explain the fault code in the first few feet of travel.  The ECU expects to see a specific shaft speed relationship for each gear.  When it does not see that relationship, it throws a code (in this case it says I have a bad input speed sensor – I know that is not the case).  To confirm this theory, I called the local Roadranger rep.  (a very helpful person) and he confirmed that my theory is probably correct.  

He can reprogram my replacement ECU for the correct gear set and I should be good to go.  His schedule is such that we can't do the reprogram before we have to leave on our next trip.  I will use the loaner ECU (THANKS Wayne) for the start of this next trip and have the Roadranger guy ship my unit to me when I am on the road.

If you have followed all of my “tribulations”, you will note that switching computers has now bitten my twice.  Hopefully we are “on the road to recovery”.

BTW, I have talked to Sonnie Gray several time and profusely apologized to him for all my negative comments about mechanical engines and begged him to remove the hex he has placed on my bus Grin Shocked.

Jim
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 08:47:07 AM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 03:12:21 PM »

I did check the transmissions involved.  My transmission has the "C" gear set, while the donor has the "B" gear set.  That pretty much confirms the theory of why I got the error code on the replacement ECM.

Funny, I carry lots of spare parts with me, but there is no guarantee that the part will work.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 03:50:43 PM »

Jim I wanted to thank you for following up with your findings...and hopeful solution ...fingers crossed...I'm just starting out on the autoshift adventure and need to file all the info I can about problems that might arise....Bob
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 08:44:28 PM »

That is just great! Love those lights going on and hope it pans out. My thanks too for your posts and followups. And for the repower articles.
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2010, 07:07:07 AM »

Jim,  I have a Gen I, "C" ratio A/S in my Kenworth.  I have a spare ECU that I got from eBay, but after reading your post I wonder if I have the correct one.  Do you mind sharing the part numbers.  The Eaton information available on line is awesome for support, but in all mine I couldn't find a page with part numbers.  The operators manual, installation manual, service manual, troubleshooting manual, yes, but no part listing.

Thanks, Russ
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2010, 07:42:39 AM »

Bob and Dave:  I always debate about posting what some folks would call minutiae.  That can be a real pitfall for an engineer!  I have taken the approach that I will post these details until my "ignore" count exceeds 100  Grin

Russ, my parts book shows K-2609 for the B ratio and K-2856 for the C ratio. In truth, the ECU is the same, and the only thing that seems to be different is the software.  I think those numbers are only for inventory and do not appear on the ECU. 

So, I would find someone who can reprogram the ECU (local Roadrange rep) and have them make sure it is for your "C" ratio.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2010, 09:33:23 AM »

GOD BLESS YOU....Jim

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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2010, 12:27:14 PM »

Thanks Jim, I hope I just carry it as a spare, but....just in case.  I've been thinking to that I may put the new (maybe it's rebuilt - it's clean) one on and carry the working original as my spare.  Good to know that the number isn't on the outside so I guess I have to go to my KW dealer to have them plug in and tell me.  Need to do the same for engine ECU to turn it up a bit.  I can see it now - here I comes with about 4 ECUs and wondering why we're going to charge him several hundred $ each to scope them....maybe I can get a group buy.  I have spare ECU for engine as well.

Russ
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2010, 11:59:25 AM »

Well, between rain and snow storms, I took the bus for a couple of laps around the subdivision today.  Everything worked pretty good.  Transmission worked great.  Charge air hydraulic fan did not come loose and get into the CAC  Grin

The new hydraulic pump is a bit puny at slow engine speeds and the power steering gets a bit sluggish if the transmission shifts to neutral at very slow speeds.  I think I can work around that.  I had to lift the front end to take some pictures of the jack system for the upcoming article and it would not lift unless the engine was on high idle.  Again, I can live with that.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2010, 04:10:52 PM »

Russ,

Why not install the ECU and prove that it is compatible and works.  From Jim"s posts I would conclude that having one that is programmed for a different unit won't break it....even if doesn't function.  And, regardless what the shop says you will install them and test them anyway.  Get in front of the money curve.    No?

HTH,

John
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2010, 06:09:57 PM »

John make a good point.  Not too hard to change.  Be very careful with the two large connectors.  They are pretty puny.  I have had to use tie wraps to hold them in place.  Terrible design.

You will be able to tell if it is correct in the first 50 feet.  Will not shift and will throw a code.  If it runs ok and shifts, I would drive it for a few miles to check everything out. 

BTW, the tower ECU appears to be the same for either transmission ratio.  I did run the tower ECU for the transmission that gave me the wrong ratio ECU for the owner to allow him to eliminate it as a problem.  Worked fine.

Jim
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 06:13:20 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2010, 07:44:06 PM »

John and Jim,  Good suggestion, thanks.  I'm probably still 18 months from rolling again, lots to do before I can take it around the block.  One other thing is that my truck is a bear to switch the A/S ECU.  Some models have an access hole in the floor, mine does't.  That makes changing a real bear.  I'm 99% sure I'm going to cut an access hole so I can do it from above and that makes your suggestions more valid.  Russ
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2010, 10:32:33 AM »

Ahoy, Jim,

Check:  Wholesale  --  Portland  -- I bought an ECM for my M-11  7/09 for $750  CPL1856 Runs OK -- 800 547 1315  Rich.

They were big, helpful, and reasonable priced.  They may have some Autoshift stuff.

Enjoy   /s/   Bob
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2010, 11:35:17 AM »

Thanks, Bob.

I took the bus on a longer check-out drive today.  Did a long pull and the transmission did fine. 

My new hydraulic fan did a pretty good job of keeping the charge air temperature down.  I was only using the low speed and did not have my misters hooked up.

However, my power steering has some issues.  I will start a separate post.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 07:14:30 AM »

I am posting this from another thread.  I wanted to keep this information together in one thread.

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  By Brian Diehl:  Jim, I'm so glad you were able to actually get down the road and have no engine/transmission problems!  Way to go!


I don't think I saw where you mentioned exactly what it was that caused your original transmission ECU to fail.  What was the root cause analysis on that?

Brian, I am not exactly sure how the ECU got screwed up.  As I approached Raton Pass on the way home from Albuquerque, I made a quick decision to pull over and turn on the misters (charge air cooler issues).  For some reason, I kicked the transmission into neutral (a normal process for me at very slow speeds).  When I kicked it into neutral, the transmission seem to react strangely.  When I went to take off, the transmission did not want to shift.  I tried it a couple of more times and after about 4 times, it shifted and we went on down the road.  About 100 miles later, the transmission would not shift out of 10th.  I nursed it to a rest stop and did a bunch of trouble shooting with my Pro-Link.  The results were that the ECU had "failed".  That is when I put the replacement ECU on and ran into the gear ratio incompatibility and got to go home behind the hook.

I am not sure if the ECU has gone belly up or if there is a software issue.  I have taken it along with the wrong gear ratio ECU to the Eaton rep to have them reprogrammed.  My hopes are that the original ECU is not toast.

I still have a hard time understanding how my kicking the transmission out of gear would cause the ECU to "fail"

I will also post this on the thread about the AutoShift problems to keep everything together.

BTW, we just traveled 700 miles and did not have any problems - what is wrong with this picture Grin

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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