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Author Topic: WVO so far  (Read 6114 times)
wal1809
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 01:39:22 PM »

My wife and I are planning a trip and I suggested New Mexico.  If we head that way I would like to meet up with you and maybe check out your gear there in person.  It looks like you got it going on.  Nice set up.

I set up to dry my oil using heat and spray.  After a month I noticed I had a white line in the bottom of the 300 cubie indicating some more water dropped out.  I have a pick up tube that goes down into the oil about a foot off of the bottom.  I need to change that.  I am going to use some flexible hose to a float, using it as a pick up tube that only gathers the top oil rahter than take a chance and get some dropped out water.
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NeoplanAN440
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1995 MCI 102 D3 running WVO Neoplan AN440




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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 02:07:23 PM »

You are always welcome to the right now windy and dusty New Mexico,

for now we are just preparing to head out and do a west coast trip to gather my last parts for the bus repower!!
but im sure we will meet soon and chat about all the grease and what else!!


maybe i can use this post to ask one of my questions again!!

Has any body here or knows somebody that is running a cummins engine with PT fuel pump on WVO?Huh??

this would be an early L10 or the famous 855  Big Cam .........



i have seen allready even a Detroit S60 running on WVO but never a Big CAM or other like that!!!


thanks in advance for any hint!!


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JohnEd
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 05:56:56 PM »

I should have 200 gallons by the time you get here to Eugene, Orygun. Much of it settled a full year.

Wal,

May I suggest an alternative to your heat and spray drying process.  Take a quantity of water and dissolve cheap water softener rock salt into it while the water is hot so it is supersaturated.  Add that mix to your oil and pump it around a good long while.   Salt water is heavier than fresh and it settles out more quickly.  Salt water is looking really hard for some more water to merge with and that water in suspension gets picked up better than..... Drain off the water and be assured there is nearly no water left in suspension.  Big added benefit is that ACID levels in WVO are related to water content so get rid of the water and, well, you get the picture.

You can detrermin how much water is suspended in your oil by testing with the MANOMETER AND CARBIDE method and that is down to "how many parts per million"....500 ppm is supposed to be the max allowable and WVO can contain many thousands and still appear clear and dry.  The mano is only a piece of clear tubing nailed to a board with a ruler behind it and carbide is cheap and you REALLY should have a really good idea how much water you are pushing as it hurts.  While you are at it, test your washed oil for acid level.  That is more complicated but nothing you shouldn't easily be able to accomplish.

Lets see....that covers acid and water and you are already doing particulate....so is there anything else you should test for?   Your turn to talk and let it be known that salt is not soluble in WVO but it is soluble in the water that might be in suspension along with the acid.  Soooo???

Not trying to cause trouble now...HONEST!  The hole wurld is a watch'en and even more are listening. Wink

John
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wal1809
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 04:47:59 AM »

Oh man I don't think your causing trouble at all.  Any time I can learn somehting new I love to hear it.  I have never had atrouble with water in the past and I believe I know where I went wrong this time.  I needed to go collect oil but had no place to put the oil I had in the super sucker.  I have 2000 gallons sitting around in the 300 gallon cubies.  I needed to make room so I started drying and filtering oil to put in the settle tank for the bus.  I got in a hurry and steeped out of my rules of "Don't look at the oil to determine if it is dry, test it".  I filled the dryer higher than normal and let it run longer than normal.  I filtered it and sent it and went to collect oil.  To teach me a lesson I am going to have to re-dry that oil.  That aint going to be easy for I piped it to go in one direction not the other.  I do believe the oil on top in the designated bus settle tank will be water free.  I will test it prior to bus entry.

I use salt sometimes when making bio D.  After settling and draining the glycerin off of the bioD I circulate through red oak chips and salt.  I then run it to a wash barrel.  Where I used to use 100 gallons of water to completely wash the fuel of its soap I only use 30 to 40 max.

To check for water I use the hot plate method to check for major water content.  If I get crakle and pops then I continue drying.  When It passes that then I use the weigh heat and weigh.  A fella that goes by John Galt uses a glass beaker covered with a flat piece of glass.  He heats the beaker with the oil in it and if condensations developes on the flat glass he continues to dry.  That can get you  down to 300 PPM or less.

I colect all kinds of oil.  Depending on its titrated acid level I decide where it goes.  I get some oil that titrates at 20.  It goes to an outside 55 gallon drum to be used in bio D with an acid treatment to lower the tritrate low enough to hit it with a base methoxide.  I can recover 70 to 80% with the acid/base method.  Anything lower than 7 gets regular treatment in the bioD.  Then the golden stuff heads to the bus.  I got a Pakistani restaurant owner who gives me his oil.  All he fries in it is goat which has very little free fatty acids.  I call it the golden juice.  When making BioD with it all I needed was a base and it passed the 3/27 everytime first time.




This is a pic of the oil circulate dryer on the left.  I have foam sprayed on the bottom barrel to hold as much heat as I can even though it is open top.  With patience and not hurrying like last time I can get 50 gallons of oil down to an accepatable level of water in about 4 hours depending on what it had in it prior to drying.  Oh please excuse the mess, I have been busy.

To be honest I like your idea of the salt.  However I can't take on another project as I am smoked for time right now.  I built a massive processor for the bio D and it took 6 months.  After running my first 1000 gallons I needed a better mousetrap or at least I needed my mouse trap to be more efficient.  I built a Murphy's Machine.  The plans tell you how to build it but lack in the automated part.  I broke the whole system down and made it more automated.  When done you could hit a switch or open a valve to move oil, utilizing the pumps that were already in place.

I sped the machine up to where I started getting a back up at the wash barrel, the washing time was slowing me down.  So I added another wash barrel.  I went along for a while and decided to put the red oak and salt barrel in.  Then I got the bus and added in the plumbing and pump for the WVO system.  Now I am in belly deep with the conversion of the bus.  I am also in the middle of training season with folks coming to the house for the dog training and clinics held all over the State.  I aint about to start another project.  I grabbed a tiger by the tail and I really can't let go right now.  

Once I get the bus done and I get some lake, steak and Knob Creek (Favorite beverage) time in then I will get restless and call you on the telephone.  If you don't mind I will rob your brain for some ideas about the salt treatment then.  Well actually curiosity is creeping in.  How long do you circle your oil in the salted water?
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wal1809
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 05:16:03 AM »

Oh for you already converted to WVO people.  Give me some direction on an idea here.  Once I put the hose on the hose barbs I bought, it aint coming off.  So me thinking ahead (Lord help us all) I figured I needed a way to prime the WVO system and to relieve air from the system sisnce I am doing a closed loop on the WVO side.  So after the 3 way valve in the return WVO line I placed a Tee with a 1/2  6 inch long nipple and a ball valve at the end of that.  The nipple sticks straight up.  So if I were to place a vaccum on the nippleI could prime the entire system.  If any resiual air is in the closed loop it will get caught by the upright nipple as it passes under the openeing.  Basically an air trap, the air bubbles would replace the oil in the nipple.    Any time I need to prime or bleed the system I could restrict the wvo line after the air trap and let the engine's fuel pump force oil up and out the nipple.  When done I just close the ball valve.  I can only imagine when doing a filter change your going to get air in the system.  With a closed loop there is no way to get the air out.

In the future I will look into doing the smaller surge tank which would eliminate the need for the air trap.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 05:17:55 AM by wal1809 » Logged

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NeoplanAN440
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2010, 02:58:01 PM »

on your closed loop!!!

i would use a third 3port valve,so you can run as a normal system with return,so you can bleed all the air out while running.
then you can switch over to closed loop.

im not a fan of the closed loop!!!!

yes it will heat and filter the oil better,but on my cummins(where i ran a closed loop),i found that most filters will draw air when they get plugged before you feel it in power loss!
i have a sight glass on all my conversions,and you can see the level of the filter(how dirty) on the amount of air its pulling!!!!

yes i believed also that a fuel system thats not leaking,must be airtight.my sightglass has proven me thats wrong.

so if closed loop ,then with a third valve,that can be activated while driving to get air out.
also with a closed loop,your purge time to diesel will go up.
the fuel (wvo)has to be used,and then because you circle the mix in you loop it takes 5 to 10 times till your veggy diesel mix ratio is high enough.

i purge on a open system,and even after 5 miles on diesel,if i pull the filters there is a slight amount of wvo in the return.
you want to be sure your system is flushed,before the bus is parked for some time.as even very clean wvo will react with the injector parts.
my bus gets out every weekend,and i still make sure then when i come home i purge for 5 extra miles!!!



even companies like frybr.. (dont wanna show the full) that uses closed loop on cummins,uses the third valve to purge and in case they think there is air in the system to clear while running.

the detroit wont show fuel starvation on power loss,as other pump systems.
if you feel it ,its allready running with air for a long time.(that what i found)



again,
i use a sightglass to see my fuel inlet and outlet,and a pressure and vacuum gauge to monitor filter condition!!!! i like to have more input ,then not knowing whats going on!!!


my cents or maybe dollars
on closed loops
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NeoplanAN440
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2010, 03:02:53 PM »

sightglass with vacuum gauge on inlet

pressure gauge before secondary filter
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wal1809
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2010, 06:03:24 PM »

Very nice set ups!!!!!
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wal1809
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 08:10:27 AM »

Sorry I didn't have time yesterday on "Veru nice setups".  Where did you get the sight glass?  Did you use a regular vaccum gauge?  Is it post primary filter?  I would like to include these on mine as well.  I can easily include the return to tank via valve.  What I have now is a ball valve with a pex tube going straight up at the highest point in the WVO system.  The pex then bends 180 degrees and runs out the bottom of the bus.  My thoughts were to open the valve and let the air out until grease came out the tube.  Your system sounds better with bleeding the air to the tank by electronic valve.  As it stands now I would have to go back to the back and manually open the ball valve.

When you see air bubbles, as you say they happen more than we would think, how much volume are you seeing in the tube?  The reason I ask is I have the 6 inch 1/2 inch nipple which will trap air.  Once I get passed the volume amount of air in the nipple then air will circle through the loop.  I can't imagine getting that much air in the system.  If I do then I got a problem I need to fix.  Your thoughts on this please for I am driving blind here.
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 08:50:52 AM »

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 07:37:06 PM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2010, 10:25:02 AM »

WAL

the vacuum gauge i found at JEGS. its liquid filled as all the pressure gauges i use.

on you air trap!!

please look closer into the idea of a closed loop!!! the idea is that your fuel return is T ed into the suction side of the fuel pump,so all fuel returned will circle.that means your whole fuel loop (after the restriction orifice in the head) draws a vacuum to get new fuel!!!

to have your idea work,you would have to remove the orifice and set your t and balvalve to relaese air at that spot!!! everything after the orifice is vacuum,so more air will enter when you open your valve!

as for air,i will try to get a pic this weekend,showing the sightglass when running with a used filter!!!
there is always lot off tiny bubbles.

if you wanna do the return idea to get the air out ,you need a three port or two ball valves.
you need to get the fuel flowing back to the tank,and on the other side you need to close the t in front of the gear pump.

please draw down your fuel system and look at it,you will see what will be your problem.
(always remember,when running a closed system,there will be a vacuum behind the orifice)

if somebody else can get me some hints how to make and post a diagram here,i will do that!!!
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NeoplanAN440
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2010, 10:38:15 AM »

NJD

yes you are right.
on dino i would use the pressure gauge behind the secondary.
the orifice sets your fuel pressure to about 15psi,when the filter gets bad it drops!

i use the same secondary filter for wvo and diesel.i know it slows my purge times,and there will be always some wvo disolved in the filter.i had some problems with pumps (on other engines)and injectors,when switching from cold diesel to 170F WVO.the plunger in the pump would expand faster then the body and causes it to seize!

in order to get these temp diffs a little slower,i run the same secondary on most of my systems.it gives a slight mix of the fuels on switch over,and the temp change takes a little longer.
maybe a detroit wont care,but i also dont know what the head passages would say when they get stone cold diesel after running all day 170F wvo.

with my pressure gauge in front of the filter,i can see how viscous  (hot) my wvo is,and also if the pressure raises i know my filter starts clogging up.

on diesel i have 15psi fuel pressure before the secondary.
on wvo,even at 170F i have 20 psi in idle. (so much to wvo is the same as diesel when hot)(it only looks as liquid as )

if my wvo temp drops to 140 i allready have 28 psi and up.cold wvo will show 40psi etc....

thats just my way how i set it up,from problems i had.if i could get more space on my dash,i would measure even after the filter and .......so many ideas.maybe no time to drive,as i like to be in control!
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wal1809
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2010, 11:31:13 AM »

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wal1809
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2010, 11:39:44 AM »

The ball valve air trap is at the highest point in the wvo side.  It has a PEX pipe sthat comes from it straight up bends to 180 degrees and down and out of the bus, wire tied in place.  By restrictin twix the valve and the Tee and openeing the valve, the pump should push oil up and out of the pex pipe.  It should only take a second or 2 to clear any air. 

The outlines in red is the diesel side the other is WVO.  "P" is primary filter "2" filter is secondary. The ----- is fuel to the racks.  I have set up the same way as you have on the WVO and diesel both using the secondary filter.

If you see faults in my system I would rather take it now than later.  Now I am parked at home later I will be on the road.  Not questioning what your saying I can't for the life of me see the air not coming out of the trap with a restriction in the line between the air trap/ball valve and the Tee behind Heat exchanger #1.

I am waiting with baited breath for your input as this has been an ongoing project.  Thank you for bouncing and exchanging ideas.  This is all great stuff right here.
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wal1809
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2010, 11:47:55 AM »

Question:
Why the pressure gauge before the secondary filter?

Secondary filter is a finer mesh than the primary and will plug up about 5X as often in my experience. (Of course, that's with Dino dew), I always put my gauge after the secondary and I can tell at a glance with a blip of the throttle that the filter needs changing.

What5 is going on BigD and I do mean Dallas.  I believe he put the pressure gauge between the pump outlet and the secondary filter to measure the pressure of the fuel being forced into the filter.  That is the only way I can make it make sense.
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