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Author Topic: We were just talking about fire  (Read 3921 times)
Chopper Scott
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« on: July 01, 2010, 05:25:06 AM »

Click on the link

http://journalstar.com/news/local/article_696620fc-84b2-11df-baa3-001cc4c03286.html


Edit--- I found another link. Guess what?

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100701/NEWS01/707019811#fiery-i-80-crash-kills-2
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 05:29:57 AM by Chopper Scott » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 05:42:40 AM »

Obviously I have a vested interest in this story.  One site says it was a tire failure.  The other does not mention the cause. 

If you find out more about the fire, I would appreciate the information.

Jim
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 05:57:28 AM »

We obviously don't have all the details yet. Something catastrophic happened for it to engulf the entire motorhome in seconds. Either a gas tank rupture or, more likely, a propane tank or line.
It's sad that they were unable to evacuate in time.

Please post more info if you find it.

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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 10:24:52 AM »

I'll keep watching for more info guys. It's strange that we were just talking about something like this.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 11:19:53 AM »

Sad loss . . .   Sad
From the sketchy information, sounds like there were multiple things going wrong in rapid succession.

As can happen when a tire fails & starts beating the crap out of everything within reach.

I am interested in learning more details to see if there is something I need to improve upon on mine . . .
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 11:31:46 AM »

Think about what happens in a blowout.

You start with a heavy rubber and steel container, which fails catastrophically.  In doing so, fragments may be sent in all directions, not to mention a "pinwheel" of tread whipping around.

Imagine a chunk of steel-reinforced tread ripping through a propane line, striking sparks as it goes, which fills the coach with gas in a matter of seconds before something sparks it.

Care to bet that this S&S motorhome had a single door, halfway back?  And that they had locked the door?

Consider this a good reminder to make sure your fuel lines are protected from blowouts (on a bus, this is generally the case, but MAKE SURE).
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 12:08:59 PM »

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 06:44:07 PM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 03:38:59 PM »

Alright, Dallas,
There you go, expecting us to use that thing called perspective.  Next thing ya know, you'll want us to apply SENSE!  I don't want to fan any flames, but I have to admire your courage in expressing your opinion, and I have to agree.
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 03:47:42 PM »

OK, one more comment.  BG6, I don't want to discourage any sharing of information here, just offering my opinion.  I have to confess to have been guilty of expressed my opinion before having thought it through; a mistake I still make at times.  I have to remind myself that sometimes there are factors I haven't yet considered, or haven't been made known that might put a different perspective on things.  Good thread, by any count, guys.  Keep on sharing what you find and what you think.  That's what makes us all think this stuff through.
Regards,
Dennis 
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 04:24:38 PM »

BG6, I really wish you would quit using sensationalism in this kind of post.

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Imagine a chunk of steel-reinforced tread ripping through a propane line, striking sparks as it goes, which fills the coach with gas in a matter of seconds before something sparks it.

The tanks are filled to 250 psi. MAX. If they are close enough to the tire to have the regulator ripped off, then that would be a different story, but, then the gas wouldn't get into the coach, would it?

If you say so.  Gee, I hate to be sensationalistic, so I won't tell you about the things I've seen happen right in front of me, or which I've come up on a few minutes afterward.  I don't want to tell you about the accident reports that I've read, those are pretty sensationalistic, too. 

Instead, I will just point out that two people are dead because their motorhome was fully engulfed in flame before they were able to stop after a tire blew out, and wait for your non-sensationalistic explanation for how it happened.

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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 04:58:40 PM »

Scott >  Thanks for posting the thread.   I remember growing up less that 7 miles away from the I-80 Beaver interchange being built and paved south to hwy 6.

We can all speculate what has happened.   Using compasion in these situations is always the higher road.  Dallas we all have our opinions.   I can take offense with your statement.    "Or those that want a 'total electric' coach because propane is so dangerous?"    Maybe some of us have young children aboard the coach and have see the stove gas valves constantly played with.  It is a personal choice.    This is a forum to express ones view.    It would be nice to have the resident NTSB as a forum member.   


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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2010, 05:01:31 PM »

Guys, Let's get back on the topic and leave out the what if's. If we stay on topic, we might learn something we can apply to our own coach.

I read both links and did not find any details on what happened. I think it's safe to assume the tire blew and he lost control. We still haven't heard what caused the fire.

It would be interesting to find out what happened to cause such a tragic loss. I pray I never have to experience the loss that those poor families are dealing with.

I would sure hate to lock a useful topic!

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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2010, 05:35:41 PM »

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 07:08:13 PM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2010, 06:53:52 PM »

I agree with Dallas.  No, celebrations are NOT in order.  Happens often.  I agree mostly and it all makes sense.  I think the new tanks even stop the flow if they senses a line broken and the flow too high.  Didn't know they continue to regulate cause my furnace has a heck of a flame.

A friend was camping up at a logging camp.  He said one night he was in the bedroom and he heard a loud WHUMP and saw flames coming from under the sink which also housed the furnace.  It was late fall and he had the furnace on all day.  He said he ran for the door that was amidships and directly opposite the sink and "BARELY MADE IT".  He said as he looked over his shoulder he saw flames engulf the center of the S&S and completely block the door.  Regulated slow leak?  Not what he described.  But I know the tanks have a safety mech in them.  I have also used them to fuel HUGE burners for boiling corn.  I thought they would trip out but they didn't and nothing in any RV uses gas at the rate of those burners....nothing.

John
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 09:29:34 PM by JohnEd » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2010, 07:29:38 PM »

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Why take offense?

Quote
It really pisses me off when people describe things like propane as "Dangerous" ..... Gee's, what about the idiot's 



Because as a individual on this forum I have made a choice to have a all electric coach.   And because I do not want the risk of fire caused by a propane explosion.   I don't want the risk.   And I make the choice not to have it in my coach.   

FYI,  I have a 1000 and 500 gallon  tank with 150 feet of buried gas line to supply propane to my home and business.   I am aware of how safe it can be.    However for my coach I have made a personal choice to run a all electric coach.   I'm sorry that I pissed you OFF for feeling that way.   As far as calling people idiots  >>   Go to page 18  March 2008 issue BCM  >> what hypocrite!
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Chopper Scott
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2010, 08:28:58 PM »

Hey guys. Lets just try and learn something from this tradgedy. For all we know as of now it could have been an all electric coach. Maybe the tire blowing wasn't the main cause. For all we know they may have been hauling illegal fireworks. I am going to keep searching for some kind of cause because it does mean a lot to us.  I may even email the state patrol and explain why I would like to know what happened in the event that we could all learn from this tradgedy. Never pass up an opportunity to learn something.
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2010, 08:38:28 PM »

This thread has the potential to reveal some very useful information that will help people make their own safety decisions.  It is also showing signs of becoming another train wreck of a thread with angry members and such.  Let's keep it constructive & helpful.

One possiblity that hasn't been touched on is a good possibility.  Medical oxygen on board.   If too much of it was venting to the cabin air, after a while it could make the cabin air oxygen rich and that can make any fire much worse.  Remember the tour bus that burned in Texas a couple years ago?
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Chopper Scott
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2010, 08:45:03 PM »

The latest...
A fire that quickly engulfed a recreational vehicle on Interstate 80 near Beaver Crossing on Wednesday afternoon killed a Florida couple, authorities say.

Witnesses saw the eastbound RV swerve and catch fire before going into a ditch and back onto the on-ramp at the Beaver Crossing interchange, about 30 miles west of Lincoln, just after 1 p.m.

The RV was fully engulfed by the time it came to a stop, Nebraska State Patrol spokeswoman Deb Collins said.

The man and woman inside weren't identified Wednesday evening because authorities weren't sure family had been notified, Collins said.

The Nebraska State Fire Marshal's office is investigating the incident.



I also read in another article that was basically the same that the couple were in their 80's. I never thought of medical oxygen but that is a possibility also.
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2010, 08:55:18 PM »

Maybe they were fatally injured in the rollover....
To each their own as far as the electric/propane issue.
We were awakened two nights ago to our propane detector, that thing is super sensitive. It was the 409 wifey used on the counter. We have a detector in the bay as well. Fwiw they did a propane explosion on mythbusters a while back and it eased my fears regarding a catastrophic failure.
Play nice boys or they'll lock this thread.
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2010, 08:59:04 PM »

The world isn't flat? omg, I've been hanging on too tightly.  My 2 cents are on the older couple having oxygen equipment and a leak someplace.
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2010, 09:56:53 PM »

We lost two or three astronauts not too many years ago.  Happened on the pad when they had a fire.  The "experts" had deemed the interior environment to be 100% oxygen.  The astronauts made a safety complaint that the 100% ox created a serious fire hazard and any ignition would be impossible to extinguish. The argument was that all that plastic wire insulation and everything else in the capsule was required to be "flame retardant.  So what does a test pilot know?  Have you ever seen how steel wool seems to explode into flame in a high ox environment?  You all know the end of the story....they died in an inferno right on the pad and mere inches from workers that, while it only took seconds to open the hatch, could not reach them in time.   Makes me want to through up that there was never any mention of the IDIOTS that designed that system and the ones that disregarded astronauts and test pilots that were also engineers.  Did I say idiot?  Pardon me....I meant to say IDIOT

Problem with an RV or nearly anywhere else is that too much oxygen isn't easily detected.  Gasoline simply leaking wouldn't do that and neither would propane cause to get that much in the environment it would stink to high heavens and it would have displaced the oxygen so leaking oxygen cylinders gets my nod.  Tragic episode.  Cylinders of O aren't marked as "fire hazard" and they certainly are a fire hazard....not to mention an explosion hazard.
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2010, 05:20:04 AM »

I thought the moderators asked us to keep things civil.
That means no name calling.   Wink
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2010, 05:59:28 AM »

Oxygen

How do you explode a non-flamable substance?
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2010, 06:27:20 AM »

Oxygen

How do you explode a non-flamable substance?

Good point technically.  But oxygen is the most potent accelerant.  In an oxygen rich environment all fires burn much faster and materials that would not otherwise burn do burn. Although not technically an explosion, in that environment fire can expand so rapidly as to create nearly the same results.
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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2010, 07:33:15 AM »

Quote
Why take offense?

Quote
It really pisses me off when people describe things like propane as "Dangerous" ..... Gee's, what about the idiot's 

  As far as calling people idiots  >>   Go to page 18  March 2008 issue BCM  >> what hypocrite!

You want to explain just how and why you are calling Dallas and I hypocrites?
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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2010, 07:57:50 AM »

On a typical S&S how close could the fuel tank be to the rear tires?   Do RVs have plastic fuel tanks, like some new cars have?   Was it gasoline or diesel, or LPG fuel?   If a rear tire shredded and flailed against the tank I suppose this could be enough to cause the entire RV to be in flames by the time it had stopped.   My bus has thick steel wheel well liners, but I'm thinking of adding extra steel plates in front of and behind the rear wheels to protect my house batteries and anything else nearby, just in case a tire bursts.

I still think there's more to this story than has been reported so far.   Medical oxygen would accelerate any fire, but this quickly?   Let's see what the investigators find out, so we can hopefully all learn something.

John
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2010, 08:19:45 AM »

FWIW, oxygen will blow like a bomb if it comes in contact with petroleum products even the oil in your skin will set it off if in a liquid form I don't know how the medical oxygen generators work but most oxygen is made in a liquid form then to a gas.
I saw a guy lose a foot airing up a tire with oxygen from a welding tank one time.



good luck
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2010, 10:40:35 AM »

It states that the fire marshall is investigating so it may be awhile before we hear much.
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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2010, 12:13:46 PM »

Oxygen

How do you explode a non-flamable substance?

You don't.  However, oxygen makes mildly-flammable stuff explosive.  If there were an O2 leak which saturated the wood, it would not burn like wood.  For that matter, a high-O2-content air mix can lower the flash point of oil or grease BELOW AMBIENT TEMPERATURE.

Consider:  Gunpowder is CHARCOAL with a little sulfur in it.  It doesn't act like charcoal because it is also mixed with a massive amount of an oxidizer (potassium nitrate).
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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2010, 01:22:14 PM »

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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2010, 03:47:33 PM »

That means no name calling. Huh

I meant to say IDIOT In this case Idiot is not an insult but a category of intellectual.  We can talk about categories.....right?  What category would you place the scientists/engineers that failed to see the hazard of a pure Ox environment?  What category would you think those experts fell into?  Really? Wink

Thanks for your input.... Cool Grin Grin Grin Kiss

John



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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2010, 04:05:28 PM »

HAHAHAH, every I see people argue about propane vs total electric on coaches and which is safer. . . I'm reminded of our trips through the burnout wrecks at Colaw RV, and how most of the fires in the ones we saw were caused by the diesel engines. .. so really, we need to not use diesel engines in those buses!!!! Cheesy

The 2nd most common cause seemed to be fridge fires. . .  so yes, when we replaced the fridge in our bus, we lined the back of the compartment with sheet metal "just in case".   Wink

Good point about mid-entry doors, except the front doors do have windows and so Im' thinking I could bail out a window. . . . I'm wondering if someone or both were too injured to exit ANY door.  Cry

If you think S&S motorhomes are built shoddy, you ought to see a TT that's been wrecked! Shocked

I love to debate issues, but where I come from, it's supposed to be fun and no one is supposed to say snide things to each other. .. .and I don't really care which side of an issue I take. .  the fun is in the debate, and after it's over, we're all supposed to be having a brew together laughing about it. . . .sometimes we have the brew DURING the debate if the people are really fun. Grin Grin

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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2010, 09:55:14 AM »

The problem I have here is that the person I replied to stated unequivocally, that propane was the cause of the problem in the first place, without having any evidence whatsoever.

. . .except that I actually didn't say anything close to an unequivocal statement that propane was the cause.  Go back a read it.  I suggested the likelihood, and backed that up by asking readers to consider what happens when a tire blows out.

But hey, I was just being sensationalistic.  Sure glad I have someone dedicated to pure truth to keep me straight on these things, especially when I'm making unequivocal statements.
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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2010, 10:51:23 AM »

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 06:37:32 PM by Now Just Dallas » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2010, 11:01:19 AM »

Shyt happens!

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/07/03/dr.congo.explosion/?fbid=xGuuEHGnXqQ
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