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Author Topic: Changing tires with bottle jack  (Read 4793 times)
scotty_vince
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« on: July 01, 2010, 12:21:38 PM »

I am planning on switching out the "window makers" on my 4104 this weekend with some 22.5 w&t's. Is this something I can do with a big bottle jack and a breaker bar. If so how big a jack and any special info or tricks would be much appreciated.
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bevans6
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 01:02:55 PM »

I do this regularly.  What I do as far as jacking is concerned I use three steps.  With the bus aired up I jack under the axle lifting point until the tire is slightly unloaded, then I break loose the wheel nuts.  Take care about left and right threads, and if your tires were put on with a big air-gun and over-torqued, stop now and rethink your plan!   Step two is jack the wheel up about three or four inches clear of the ground, then block the bus chassis.  With the chassis blocked, you can now lower the wheel to just clear of the ground or barely touching, remove the wheel nuts and you now have lots of clearance around and above the wheel to get it out of the wheel well.

I use a 20 ton air operated jack, just because it makes the jacking part so easy.  the smallest jack I would try is a 12 ton, just because I have one and I can barely work the manual lever when it's under the bus.

Brian
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 01:19:58 PM »

15 minites into the job with a manual bottle jack & the air operated jacks start looking really cheap!

The higher capacity jack will be under less stress when in use - but since it will weigh more, you will be under more stress to move it into position.  Undecided So, you need to choose carefully (- if a jack spits out a seal, it is of no use until it is fixed. . . .) My prefrence is to use a jack that is rated at or above the weight of the whole bus - overkill, but usually less effort to actually lift the bus.

Good luck
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scotty_vince
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 02:04:39 PM »

What can I do if the wheel nut is on to tight for breaker bar?
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bevans6
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 02:49:25 PM »

If the nuts are on too tight, you have to escalate your game.  My driver's side were all way overdone when i got my bus, at the end of the day I used a Snap-on 1" drive impact with the air pressure dialed up to 140 psi.  If you don't have such a tool, or the means to make up a 10 foot extension that won't break, my advice is to simply call a mobile tire service and have them take the wheels off for you.  Or drive your bus to a tire shop you trust, have them break the nuts loose and re-torque correctly.  After you install them and torque them correctly with your tools, you will never have the problem again.

There is a tool on E-bay that uses planetary gear ( I think) torque multiplication to take off wheel nuts, and it has gotten good reviews, but I don't have a link to it.

Brian
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scotty_vince
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 04:17:23 PM »

I think I'm going to hire someone to take them off. After all that how tight should I torque them and what's "best" way. Thankyou for the help.
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edvanland
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 05:30:03 PM »

Scotty
My only tool to remove or change a tire is a cell phone.  Most of us, I am 70, do not need to do this if at all possible. My back and heath are more important than a few dollars.
My 2 cents worth.
ED
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Ed Van
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 06:13:41 PM »

I am 35 and have more health than wealth. But thanks for the advice I think your method is much much more appealing than mine.
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JohnEd
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 06:31:15 PM »

Make sure that the nuts are NOT tightened with a impact gun.  I caught one jerk twisting the nuts on with a air hammer and then he put a torque wrench on the nut and leaned on it till it "clicked".  I watched him tighten(over) every blessed nut and then I stepped in and asked him to "verify" he torque needed to "break the nuts loose".  When he reached for the air I said "oh no, Amigo.  Use the torque wrench, I want a number".  The manager got involved and the wasted shop hour was mentioned repeatedly. Make sure you aren't in the same shape after this is over.  You should be able to break them loose and re-tighten them with out difficulty.   Each of them cause one stuck might as wel be all of them.

The HF air over hyd bottle jack goes on sale periodically and it is 40% off.  I have one and recommend it highly.

John
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 06:37:42 PM »

I broke my bolts loose with a 1" breaker bar and an extension -- I took a 2 by 8 and drilled a hole at the level of the bolt and put the extension through the hole and set it on the ground -- put the socket on the nut and the breaker bar on the extension.  I slipped an 8 foot pipe over the breaker bar handle and pulled it down.  The 2 by 8 kept the socket lined up and the pipe gave me the leverage necessary to beak the nuts loose.  I hope this makes sense -- it worked so well (and I am pretty old and kind of small) that I packed the 2 by 8 and pipe in the bays in case I need them on the road. The 2 by 8 has a series of holes that will do for most positions the lug nuts will be in.

HTH

YMMV

Melbo
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 07:25:19 PM »

As noted, a busnut should only have to do this once, the first time, then never again.

Do not let anyone put your wheel fasteners on with an air gun.

Period.

This is one physics application that is simple.

You need 500 foot-pounds on the typical stud or hub piloted bus wheel.

Your weight, hung the calculated distance out a bar from the socket, to make 500 pounds.

So, a 200 pound person, places their hands on the bar 2 foot 6 inches out on a bar, leans on it and gently raises knees and toes off the ground... makes 500 foot-pounds at the fastener.

A caution: if your studs have been abused by the previous owners, they may not maintain torque, a fancy way of saying they will loosen off, and need to be replaced.

Every busnut should consider replacing all of their wheel studs at some point, so they know exactly what has and has not been done to them.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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gus
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2010, 05:34:16 PM »

Be very careful jacking anywhere on the body. I jack the axle only and block the air bag suspension at the rubber bumper. I don't trust that old Al body at all.

I have one of those torque multipliers and it works like a charm, 58:1 multiplication.

Usually a 6' pipe on a four way lug wrench will loosen any nuts.

I agree, don't let the tire shop use the monster air wrench on your wheel.

I just finished replacing all the lug bolts of my 4104 RR rear hub because all the threads were stripped. Now I tighten them myself with a small 1/2" air wrench not capable of overdoing it.

The 4104 calls for 400 to 500 lb-ft as I remember, check your manual.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 05:36:29 PM by gus » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2010, 07:23:57 PM »

Scotty, or anyone else that is interested in jacking up a bus equipped with air bags, I air the bus up to the max height and set wood blocking under it. Then I let the air down until she is setting on the blocking. Now all I have to do is jack up the axle that I'm working on and a 12 ton bottle does it with ease. My 12 to 1 torque multiplier easily removes the lug nuts with only a 1/2 inch drive breaker bar and I reinstall using the multiplier and a torque wrench set at 40 pounds. I've never had a lug come loose between checks FWIW.
Hope this helps, Will
It's all good  Grin
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Mrbill4108
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2010, 05:06:29 AM »

To remove the tires off our bus I bought and use the Ken Tool Power Wrench TR44X (34545) Budd-Wheel Power Wrench.  It works well and I have never found a lug nut it wouldn’t loosen.

Just did a search on the net and found it here…
http://www.handsontools.com/Ken-Tool-TR44X-Budd-Wheel-Power-Wrench-Set_p_12635.html

It’s a bit pricey, but to be able to R&R a tire anytime on the road or at home I think it’s worth it. 

Now if you think you’d like be able to change a tire also, went to the tool show here and Ken Tool just came out with a new tool for demounting big tires, they call it Cobra P/N 35440.  Watched it in action and was amazed how easy it was to use.   Wish they had it back when I bought their Serpent tire tools.  Which by the way the Serpent has worked well for me for many years now, takes me less than 5 minutes to demount & mount a tire on my aluminum rims (12Rx22.5).   

http://www.handsontools.com/Ken-Tool-35446-Super-SerpentTM-5-Piece-Tire-Changing-Set_p_12504.html

See the Serpent in action:
Ken-Tool's Serpent Tubeless Tire Mount/Demount Tire Irons


See the Cobra in action:
Ken-Tool: Blue Cobra Truck Tire Demount Tool


Good luck with your tires,
Mrbill4108
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2010, 06:24:57 AM »

I gave up, I cried uncle, I threw in the towel . No more 40 HP compressors with 10 HP impact wrenches. No more titanium sockets with kryptonite breaker bars and 20 foot cheater pipes. No 5 gallon drums of magic elixir and fire wrenches.
 I don't know what caused me to have to conquer that little chunk of metal, to get it off in one piece regardless of cost or consequence. Some form of insanity maybe?
 Now I use an angle grinder with a little finesse. Usually less than a minute and the nut is off! New nuts are cheap compared to broken studs.
                                                       HTH   JIm
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 08:50:00 AM »

Hey Will, if you are using the X12  brand of 12:1 torque multiplier and setting your torque wrench to 40 lbs. you are only getting 400 lbs. of torque not 480.  It says to figure a 10:1 ratio when setting your torque wrench. I set mine for 50 lbs. so i am at 500 lbs. and well within the 450-500 lb. range  required for my wheels. I would rather be a little high than a little low. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2010, 03:00:56 PM »

Very interesting, there must be a 10 lb-ft gear friction loss in the multiplier.

My 58:1 multiplier doesn't mention anything like this and I would expect the loss for it would be much higher??
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bevans6
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2010, 03:50:38 PM »

The 58 to 1 multiplier is a lug nut remover.  Actual torque is irrelevant, as long as it's enough.  People use the more traditional multipliers to install lug nuts, which I think is a *potential* mistake *if you don't recalibrate the device and your torque wrench from time to time*, since losses inside the multiplier are many and not well regulated over time as the tool ages.  

Edit to say what I actually meant to say about loss of calibration and accuracy over time.  

Brian
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2010, 04:21:47 PM »

Brian,

Good point, I think you're right. I had planned to use it to tighten but now I'll go back to my 4-way wrench and my two foot pipe.
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Bill B /bus
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2010, 04:33:23 PM »

I am 35 and have more health than wealth. But thanks for the advice I think your method is much much more appealing than mine.

I did a set of duals at age 67 to replace an air bag. All day sucker but then you're only 35 should be half a day.

Good luck
Bill
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2010, 06:12:11 AM »


OK those tools are slicker than owl mucous, but they leave out the breaking of the bead and the and the seating of the bead Huh


I have seen someone use an sledge hammer to break it on you tube.  Any other ways?

Also lighter fluid I have seen work but can be dangerous.  How else can that be done?




Hope this isn't a hyjack but along the same lines of the topic
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2010, 06:53:37 AM »

To break the bead I use the Ken Tool tire breaking wedge, (axe)  P/N T11E or look at TG11E.  But have also use a sledge hammer as it does not take much to break the bead.   
Now to fill the tire, one of these days I’m going to invest in one of those air tanks that have a large opening to force air in fast.   But for now I just stand the tire up and roll it a bit till I get the inflation started.  Best way is to have the valve core removed and just use the end of the air hose (no air chuck) to start the seating of the bead once it sets fill the tire some then install the valve core without losing too much of the air and fill to proper  pressure.  Sounds simple but it sometime takes a bit to get the bead to seat.
Mrbill4108
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2010, 08:38:59 AM »


Also lighter fluid I have seen work but can be dangerous.  How else can that be done is that done?

Lighter fluid?  We always used starting fluid. We wanted a very rapid burn (explosion) to fill the tire with enough force to seat the bead.  As you said, this method definitely is not without risk.Jack
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2010, 10:49:56 AM »

"Hey Will, if you are using the X12  brand of 12:1 torque multiplier and setting your torque wrench to 40 lbs. you are only getting 400 lbs. of torque not 480.  It says to figure a 10:1 ratio when setting your torque wrench. I set mine for 50 lbs. so i am at 500 lbs. and well within the 450-500 lb. range  required for my wheels. I would rather be a little high than a little low."

ED,
You're absolutely correct! It is the X12 and I pulled out the instructions that came with it this morning after reading your post and that is exactly what they say. Before every trip I usually check tire pressure and lugnuts and have never found a loose one, but my project today is retightening all the lugs according to the 'NEW' spec  Grin Thanks for the heads up, Will
FWIW-I don't consider using a torque wrench on this mutiplier a 'major mistake'. It beats the he-- out of using by guess and by golly on the end of a cheater pipe (where do I place my hands on the bar to get precisely 500 foot pounds of torque at the nut?) Huh And what if I had a light lunch that day?

It's all good, Will
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2010, 12:20:31 PM »

PP, I changed what I said because you're right, if the tools are reasonably accurate there is no issue.  I have had two experiences with these - years ago helping a person undo the single center-lock wheel nut on a Chevron B19 that had been so overtorqued it was silly, we thought because someone on the crew didn't know the ratio the multiplier was; and my own that I got from Princess Auto that broke the first time I tried it.  A for-sure user failure and a probable user-failure don't make them a bad tool, I just tossed mine and got a big impact wrench to take things off, and a 4' torque wrench to put things on.  No reason I can see why your's won't do the job for you just fine.  I apologize for my comment, it was off the cuff and not thought through.  Just because I had a couple of bad experiences with torque multipliers doesn't mean anyone else will.

The Chevron B19 was a gorgeous sports racing car circa 1971 or so.  The guy had a 4:1 multiplier, but someone brought a 12:1 or similar instead.  Instead of getting 400 ft lbs, it got like 1,000 ft lbs.  the threads galled or something, it took about 2,000 ft lbs to undo it, and he had to change the parts.

Cheers, Brian
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2010, 07:06:54 PM »

PP, I changed what I said because you're right, if the tools are reasonably accurate there is no issue.  I have had two experiences with these - years ago helping a person undo the single center-lock wheel nut on a Chevron B19 that had been so overtorqued it was silly, we thought because someone on the crew didn't know the ratio the multiplier was; and my own that I got from Princess Auto that broke the first time I tried it.  A for-sure user failure and a probable user-failure don't make them a bad tool, I just tossed mine and got a big impact wrench to take things off, and a 4' torque wrench to put things on.  No reason I can see why your's won't do the job for you just fine.  I apologize for my comment, it was off the cuff and not thought through.  Just because I had a couple of bad experiences with torque multipliers doesn't mean anyone else will.

The Chevron B19 was a gorgeous sports racing car circa 1971 or so.  The guy had a 4:1 multiplier, but someone brought a 12:1 or similar instead.  Instead of getting 400 ft lbs, it got like 1,000 ft lbs.  the threads galled or something, it took about 2,000 ft lbs to undo it, and he had to change the parts.

Cheers, Brian

Please don't apologize Brian, we're all adults here LOL I'm not familiar with the Chevron, but I am familiar with the MGB circa 1963. LOved that little car. Take care, Will
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