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Poll
Question: How long should someone be allowed to change or delete one of their post?
15 minutes - 1 (1.9%)
1 hour - 1 (1.9%)
24 hours - 18 (34.6%)
1 week - 7 (13.5%)
1 month - 7 (13.5%)
no limit - 18 (34.6%)
Total Voters: 52

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Author Topic: How Long Before A Post Cannot Be Deleted  (Read 5325 times)
JackConrad
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« on: July 25, 2010, 08:50:48 AM »

    OK everyone, Y'all have been voicing your opinions on how long a person should have to change or delete their post. Here is your chance to vote. The moderators will certainly take this into consideration when changing the existing policy (if change is needed).          
    Remember everyone has their own opinion and just because someone else does not agree with your opinion does not make them stupid,  arrogant, a moron, a fool, etc.  Jack
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 08:59:17 AM by JackConrad » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 09:19:08 AM »

I don't see why it is such a big deal if someone deletes their posts?  I personally get a lot more value from current posts than from the vast archive.

The search function is so bad that I can't even find my own posts at times when I know the exact words I used.  Trying to ever find a an old thread is frustrating.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 09:21:44 AM »

Jack -

. . . stupid,  arrogant, a moron, a fool, etc. 


Hey, I resemble that remark!!

 Grin
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RJ Long
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 09:31:24 AM »

The search function is so bad that I can't even find my own posts at times when I know the exact words I used.  Trying to ever find a an old thread is frustrating.

Have you tried it lately?  The new server's capacity and speed enabled some improvements to the search function.  In tests I did on it, it looks like the built in search is performing much better now.  I do recommend using the Search function from the menu bar rather than the quick search at the top of the page.

That said, Google also provides a useful site search method as well.  Type in the keywords and then site:busconversions.com

I wouldn't discount the importance of the archived information.  A lot of people are accessing it and Google has it all indexed and updates the indexes every day.  And our "improved" search function now uses indexes and maintains them in real time.
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 09:41:34 AM »

The search functin started working again for me and I use it often.  The discussions here contain tons of useful knowledge and I hate to see it lost. (unless it is from kyle or the likes....   Wink )
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 09:44:19 AM »

I had not tried the search in quite a while.  I tried it just now and it seems to be better, but time will tell.
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 10:23:14 AM »

. . . I hate to see it lost. (unless it is from kyle or the likes....   Wink )
Yeah, some things should be forgotten  Shocked

   stupid,  arrogant, a moron, a fool, etc. 
Was someone looking for me?  Grin  Grin  Grin


As to how long, I'd vote for the 48 hours time limit to change text. However, if something comes to light afterwards, an addendum can be added (old text remains unchanged) to explain things as required.

As for searching the archives : With all the questions I have, if not for that feature, I would probably be one of the top 10 message starters!  Grin
(all it takes is practice to learn what words work best & how to narrow down the field)  Cool

Peaceful moderating - y'all   Cool  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 10:26:15 AM »

I thought a maroon was a cocoanut kind of cookie.
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 10:34:27 AM »

One of the problems with removing posts is that some of the subsequent posts loose their meaning.

Also, if a curmudgeon's posts are deleted on a regular basis, a newbie (who has done their homework & read all the archives) won't know & may take a belligerent sounding post personally.

Anyone remember 2dogs? He sure could rub people the wrong way, but once you got to see those posts, you'd know you were in good company & not alone when you got the "2dog special".

History is important for future success - we don't have time to make all the mistakes ourselves . . .
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 11:10:31 AM »

I guess the real question is who owns the posts?  Do all posts become property of Bus Conversions Enterprises to do what they wish with once I hit the post button?  Is there a terms of service that defines who owns posts?

Unless the posts are property of Bus Conversions Enterprises a user should be able to delete their posts at any time.  I personally would never see a reason to delete/edit my really old posts.  I wouldn't have the time to delete them all manually and no skill to create a script to do it.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 11:25:22 AM »

I agree with Brian.  Besides, our moderators have enough work to do.  If we keep expecting more out of 'em, first thing ya know, they'll want a pay raise! 

Dennis
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 11:36:33 AM »

In all the time this board has existed has this ever happened before? If this is a once every 10 year issue, then I say leave it alone. "Don't fix sumthin that ain't broke."

Now back to buses.
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 11:42:36 AM »

I guess it is also point of view -
Is this a place to archive all things bus conversion related?
Is this a place to hang out & chew the fat on bus related topics?
Is this a dry erase public access board that the old stuff is pushed off by the new stuff?

Seems one of the reasons to change to this format from the old one was to have a archive to retain the good answers to the questions that seem to come up frequently. (The new security features put a stop to the spam  Grin )

Your ability to delete a post does not remove it from history. Someone somewhere can retrieve it because they saved it. Once you post something on a public bulletin board without copyrighting it first, aren't you giving it away?
Some are over thinking this-

To ease the burden on the moderators:
Freeze editing options after 48 hours.
If you want to clarify your post after 48 hours, add a new reply.
If the thread is locked, either tough beans, or you have to beg a moderator to add your addendum.
If you don't like the fact that people can read what you wrote after you have changed your mind, stop writing things down.  Wink
See, simple  Cool
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2010, 12:31:49 PM »

Is there not an option for weeks? Months? It is the history that goes back several years that should not be lost. 48hrs is not enough time so I had to place a vote for no limit. It probably was a once in several year occurrence. Just don't need any copycats to follow.
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2010, 03:50:12 PM »

OK,  I changed the options and removed all the votes. You will have to vote again, but I added a couple more options.  Jack
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2010, 04:30:27 PM »

I would suggest 48-72 hours, but those were not options so I voted "1 week."  There have been plenty of times when I have had to go back and correct typos and even technical errors on my posts more than a day after posting.  After that, I have no problem saying you need to post a follow-on in the thread to "correct" something.

I know I have posted many, many things here over the years that would make little or no sense, or could possibly even be dangerous, without the background of all previous messages in the thread.  This has to be about more than any one person picking up their ball and leaving the field.

I guess the real question is who owns the posts?  Do all posts become property of Bus Conversions Enterprises to do what they wish with once I hit the post button?  Is there a terms of service that defines who owns posts? ...


Yes, there is a "terms of service" (TOS), to which you had to agree in order to register.  I have reproduced it below for anyone who has forgotten.  Depending on how long ago you registered, I suppose it is possible you agreed to slightly different verbiage than this.

The legal answer to your question is complex.  Since the TOS does not suggest you will give up copyright in your posts, then you own the content of the post.  And since the TOS does not explicitly say that you are giving the board a permanent and irrevocable right to "use" the post (Mike -- you should think about fixing this oversight), technically you would be on reasonable ground to ask that any such copyrighted post be removed.  However, and this is a big "however," courts have generally held that even though you do not relinquish all your rights in copyright by posting your material in this kind of forum, the forum operators are generally held harmless from any legal action resulting from storing, copying, and publishing that content in the specific context of the forum when you, the copyright holder, have placed the material there yourself.  In other words, even though BCM has not explicitly written in the TOS that they have the right to use your post content here, the do have such a right de facto when you are the one who posted it.  (By contrast, if I misappropriated your copyrighted material and posted it here, you could demand the forum operators remove it.  But note that the TOS already forbids me from posting someone else's copyrighted material.)

I would say that the board is within its rights to refuse to remove posts here when posted by the original copyright holder.  That being said, I suggest they change the TOS to make this explicit.  You will notice that most TOS agreements for the "big boys" spell this out, such as Yahoo and Google, as do most BBS forums.  Buried in the many pages of small-font legalese it will tell you that once you've placed your material on their site, there is no way for them to remove it permanently.

... Once you post something on a public bulletin board without copyrighting it first, aren't you giving it away? ...


No, and this is now well-established in case law.  For the record, everything I have ever typed here is copyrighted by me.  There is no longer any need to apply for or register copyrights in the U.S. -- original works are copyrighted the moment they are created.  When I find my posts have been cut-and-pasted somewhere else (as opposed to just hot-linked), I vigorously pursue that.

I have noticed my posts (along with others) occasionally appear in the magazine.  With all due respect to Mike and Chad, that's actually borderline.  Again, this can be fixed by them spelling out, in the user agreement, that anything posted here can be reprinted in the magazine (again, Mike, suggest you do this to stay protected).

So, generally, when you come across material posted in an on-line forum, that material is still copyrighted by the original poster, unless that site's TOS requires the poster to relinquish that right.  Some sites, for example, mandate a right-to-use for any purpose, meaning the site could take your posts, make a book from them, and sell it without any further permission from you.  Therefore you can not, for example, copy one of my posts here and then paste it over on BNO, or Escapees, or whatever, without my permission first.

As with all copyright issues, there is a doctrine known as "fair use" and that does come into play.  That's how I can, for example, paste very small bits of the National Electrical Code here from time to time.  It would also allow you to make a personal copy on your own computer of almost everything on the Internet for your own personal use (but not republishing elsewhere).  So if I rambled on for two pages (kinda like in this post), you could copy a few lines of that, put it in quotes, and post it elsewhere for certain purposes, as long as you attributed it to me.  This is also how we can all legally "quote" each others' posts here, and you might notice the board software does the attribution automatically.

FWIW.

-Sean
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2010, 04:38:41 PM »

Out of curiousity, where is the TOS posted besides during the initial signup?  I spent about five minutes looking through the forum and the main Bus Conversions website earlier today and didn't find it.
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2010, 05:58:43 PM »

Sorry, I said I would reproduce the TOS, then forgot to include it.  Here it is:

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material. Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum.

Note that it is impossible for the staff or the owners of this forum to confirm the validity of posts. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the posted messages, and as such, are not responsible for the content contained within. We do not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information presented. The posted messages express the views of the author, and not necessarily the views of this forum, its staff, its subsidiaries, or this forum's owner. Anyone who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to notify an administrator or moderator of this forum immediately. The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, please realize that they may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. This policy applies to member profile information as well.

You remain solely responsible for the content of your posted messages. Furthermore, you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the owners of this forum, any related websites to this forum, its staff, and its subsidiaries. The owners of this forum also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or any other related information collected on this service) in the event of a formal complaint or legal action arising from any situation caused by your use of this forum.

You have the ability, as you register, to choose your username. We advise that you keep the name appropriate. With this user account you are about to register, you agree to never give your password out to another person except an administrator, for your protection and for validity reasons. You also agree to NEVER use another person's account for any reason.  We also HIGHLY recommend you use a complex and unique password for your account, to prevent account theft.

After you register and login to this forum, you will be able to fill out a detailed profile. It is your responsibility to present clean and accurate information. Any information the forum owner or staff determines to be inaccurate or vulgar in nature will be removed, with or without prior notice. Appropriate sanctions may be applicable.

Please note that with each post, your IP address is recorded, in the event that you need to be banned from this forum or your ISP contacted. This will only happen in the event of a major violation of this agreement.

Also note that the software places a cookie, a text file containing bits of information (such as your username and password), in your browser's cache. This is ONLY used to keep you logged in/out. The software does not collect or send any other form of information to your computer.


-Sean
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2010, 06:19:00 PM »

I will probably vote for 48 hours in a day or two after I think about it.

Here is one issue that I am not sure how to deal with: many of my posts drag on for a couple of weeks or more as I and others add comments and data.  When the discussion changes significantly or a good "drift" occurs, I go back and modify the title (modifying initial post) a bit to both reflect the information contained as well as to give better search "handles".  Often times I go back days later.

Given that thought, maybe we should separate the issue of removing posts vs modifying posts.  That, of course, opens the board to the method Dallas used by going back and modifying each post.  As I think about it another couple of minutes, I think the only way to "delete" a message is to delete the text - is that correct?

No good answer.
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2010, 06:26:35 PM »

...  When the discussion changes significantly or a good "drift" occurs, I go back and modify the title (modifying initial post) a bit to both reflect the information contained as well as to give better search "handles".  Often times I go back days later.

Given that thought, maybe we should separate the issue of removing posts vs modifying posts.  ...  As I think about it another couple of minutes, I think the only way to "delete" a message is to delete the text - is that correct?


Yes, posts can not be deleted, only edited.  As long as you leave full edit capability in place, posters will be free to delete the entire contents of each post.

I don't know if SMF will support such a strategy, but perhaps editing of posts can be restricted after a period of time to thread title only.  That would achieve your objective.  Just a thought.

-Sean
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2010, 06:32:09 PM »

Sean your depth of knowledge never fails to impress me.  Marilyn served as the copyright cop for our provincial technical institute (SIAST) for several years - 6 I think.  She hated every minute of it but was really good at it so they wouldn't let her quit.  Canadian copyright law is pretty well exactly as Sean has described US law.  If you wrote it and can prove you wrote it then you own it unless you explicitly gave up ownership.  I'd echo your advice to Mike about reprinting directly from the forum without first revising the TOS.
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2010, 08:19:24 AM »

Thanks, Bob.  One of the consequences of a career spent in an industry whose only real stock-in-trade was intellectual property (IP), is that I have lost count of the number of times I've been locked into a meeting room with a pack of lawyers lecturing me about its protection.  Many of those lawyers had full-time jobs pursuing misappropriators of their company's IP -- there is no shortage of people willing to steal the ideas and hard work of others.

Brian, I'm sorry, I meant to also write earlier that I could not find the TOS posted anywhere on the site either.  The way I got it for reproduction above was to turn private browsing on (so the site could not see my cookies) and enter the registration process as a new user.  When I got to the TOS page I copied it, then came back here to post it.  I would suggest to Mike that after they are done tweaking the user agreement as I recommended earlier, they should make sure there is a link to it accessible to all current members of the forum as well.

-Sean
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 07:50:35 PM »

One thing about editing.  I have edited my "bus specs" on the "Post your bus int, ext, pictures here" numerous times during the past 6 years as I change different things as time rolls on.  I've even updated some pictures within that thread.  I wouldn't want to lose that feature.  I'm kind of selfish though.  My Eagle is on the first page of the thread and gets seen a lot, so I try to keep it fresh. 

I have updated some old threads if I feel I have more pertinent info regarding the subject, but not necessarily worthy of bringing it back to the top of the board. 

As far as deleting, I don't think I've ever deleted a post in the 11 years I've been contributing to this forum, so I ask, "is there really a problem the way it is?"  Our honorable forum moderators don't need any extra work.

David
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2010, 04:42:33 AM »

I am bringing this back to page 1. When it leaves page 1 this time, I will consider the voting done. The moderators will then discuss this and make a decision.  Thanks tom all that voted and explained there reasons.  Jack
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2010, 05:08:29 AM »

How are we supposed to know if an old post was edited (short of opening every thread & looking for the edit note at the bottom of the post? That "Post your bus here" thread is 26 pages long - ain't got the time to go back thru the tedium of waiting for all those pictures to load just to see if someone changed something.

As for me, I do like having a fixed archive - that you can add to. What good is looking up information in the archive if it can be changed after you read it? Kinda diminishes the credibility & renders the information is less credible since you can't depend on the post you referenced remaining constant. The great thing about being able to ADD a post is that the reader can see the information evolve & the discussion is easier to follow. . . .


One thing about editing.  I have edited my "bus specs" on the "Post your bus int, ext, pictures here" numerous times during the past 6 years as I change different things as time rolls on.  I've even updated some pictures within that thread.  I wouldn't want to lose that feature.  I'm kind of selfish though.  My Eagle is on the first page of the thread and gets seen a lot, so I try to keep it fresh. 

I have updated some old threads if I feel I have more pertinent info regarding the subject, but not necessarily worthy of bringing it back to the top of the board. 

As far as deleting, I don't think I've ever deleted a post in the 11 years I've been contributing to this forum, so I ask, "is there really a problem the way it is?"  Our honorable forum moderators don't need any extra work.

David

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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2010, 07:37:31 PM »

How are we supposed to know if an old post was edited (short of opening every thread & looking for the edit note at the bottom of the post? That "Post your bus here" thread is 26 pages long - ain't got the time to go back thru the tedium of waiting for all those pictures to load just to see if someone changed something.

Your right.  If my coach was on page 26 I'd probably never add/change anything. 

On the editing of old posts, there is this one post about "Eagle cooling issues" that I was very involved in back in 2006 that got really long (4 pages I think).  Over a period of a many months I made some mods and changes to the cooling system and edited the old post appropriately, but pretty much quit bringing the post back to the top.  Since that time, however, I have referenced that post with a link to it, many times when someone has subsequently come to the board about an Eagle cooling issue.  Without the editing feature I would have had to start a new thread to update my progress or bring the old post back to the top, and the reader would have to troll through the stuff that didn't work right and finally after all that reading get toward the bottom to the successful end.  That post with 4 pages still has a lot of stuff that didn't work. 

The editing gives another option to change some info in the thread.


One thing about editing.  I have edited my "bus specs" on the "Post your bus int, ext, pictures here" numerous times during the past 6 years as I change different things as time rolls on.  I've even updated some pictures within that thread.  I wouldn't want to lose that feature.  I'm kind of selfish though.  My Eagle is on the first page of the thread and gets seen a lot, so I try to keep it fresh. 

I have updated some old threads if I feel I have more pertinent info regarding the subject, but not necessarily worthy of bringing it back to the top of the board. 

As far as deleting, I don't think I've ever deleted a post in the 11 years I've been contributing to this forum, so I ask, "is there really a problem the way it is?"  Our honorable forum moderators don't need any extra work.

David

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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2010, 08:01:38 PM »

Yep, it is nice to have concise threads discussing a problem/ fix. Would be nice to toss out the long winded missives that don't add any technical info but are heavy on the only remotely related personal story from years gone by or simply detour the thread onto a useless tangent.  Roll Eyes  Shocked

So, how would I handle the occasional thread that is usefull for future reference?
I'm sure the moderators will assist with the cleanup & posting of that thread in the technical archives. Of course, when things need to be revised, the moderators will work with you to make the improvements.  Cool

That's how I'd skin that cat.  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2010, 03:01:04 PM »

When I find an especially useful post I try to remember to copy and paste it into my bus forum folder.

Text takes very little hard drive space and is much easier to find than searching the archives.

It seems only fair that anyone posting should have the option of removing his own post at any time. Maybe there should be a shorter time limit for editing, but not removing.
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2010, 05:14:24 PM »

I'm not a fan of tearing holes in the fabric of this board. Removing a post is the same as removing threads out of a tapestry or pieces from a puzzle.

I am a fan of locking editing options after a week or two. If after that you need a post removed, fine, but only with the intervention of a moderator so the part of the post that matters to the thread can remain - anonymously & paraphrased if desired.  Cool

How's that for a compromise that places more burdens on the moderators?  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 05:19:43 PM »

Personally this is a quite sensitive subject for me.

I haven't slept a wink, or ate a bit of food since all this started with the person who removed all his extremely knowledgeable expertise and wisdom from here and changed his name!

What am I going to do, I'm going to start looking and acting like a scarecrow or zombie any minute now!  











Blah, hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Honestly, if a "grown" person wants to destroy any and all traces of wisdom, who are we to judge or interfere?

OF my personal thought is that once posted, it should be posted period! With allowances for editing but not removing ALL content! (in other words if whoever gets their panties all wadded up, and wants to create a stir by removing their past posts allow them to edit it, but make it where a post can not be completely empty, or deleted!)

I did allow for some ability to change your mind to delete post up to 24 hrs, as I know sometimes people post silly, stupid, or hateful things without thinking while mad and should be able to remove them if they come to their senses with in 24 hrs.

But ya know, really if ya don't want it out there or are worried who might read it later, it shouldn't be POSTED on a public forum at all!
Just my 2 cents worth, which along with $3 will by you a cup of coffee!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2010, 06:00:17 PM »

Up until now, I have not expressed my opinion on this subject, so here goes. First, if you are upset or mad don't post until you are in a better mood, stop and think how your post might to interpreted before putting it on the BB.  I feel 24 hours is plenty of time to edit a post. If you want to update a post because you need to add something on a project, just add another post to that thread (this will let everyone see the "before & after". Any post deletion or edit after 24 hours should require the approval of a moderator. Just my opinion, Jack
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« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2010, 07:06:40 PM »

What Jack said!
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« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2010, 10:50:51 PM »

Yeah, what Jack & Jack said & I'll tell you right now, I know Jack! (both of 'm!)
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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