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Author Topic: Are there any inexpensive rust inhibitors?  (Read 3541 times)
belfert
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« on: August 04, 2010, 07:12:19 AM »

Are there any inexpensive rust inhibitors?  Rust Bullet looks like a good product, but I probably need a gallon at a cost of $150.  I see McMaster-Carr has a few options, but they cover a huge price range from $30 a gallon to $100 a gallon and I have no idea if they work as well as more expensive products.

I'm also considering sand blasting the steel, but that could be expensive too by the time I have that done.  The steel is not perforated, but has a fair bit of surface rust.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
bevans6
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 07:25:48 AM »

I use dilute phosphoric acid in a spray bottle, it converts the rust to a stable compound thusly (Wikipedia);

Rust removal

Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often formulated as a gel, commonly called naval jelly. It is sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off, leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance. (Such protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating processes.)

I happen to use POR-15 products on my race cars, so I just buy their Metal Ready product, which is mostly Phosphoric acid anyway.  I haven't noticed it to be very expensive, I honestly don't know how much it costs.  It goes a long way in a spritz bottle.  http://www.por15.com/METAL-READY/productinfo/MRG/

Brian
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:28:25 AM by bevans6 » Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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TomC
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 07:58:52 AM »

I've had good luck with good old Rustoleum.  They make a over sound rust primer that works well. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 08:26:06 AM »

I have a little experience in this as well.
To have my bus blasted from the top of the bays up is 300.00 I think that is a awesome price.
As for paint and rust inhibitor, I think two part polyurethane is the best. Period. It's actually water proof. Primer is not. Acid etching has proven to be a bad issue when it comes to the final paint job. "Can" cause problems.

 Check out this site:
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/homepage.htm
It's what I use for the primer on anything. The company and the guy that owns it are exemplary. You can actually call the owner anytime and get outstanding information on paint or problems or whatever issues you encounter. He also has a few standard paints left "I think"!!.

After finding this place, I can honestly say you are messing up if you don't check them out....IMHO.

 Chaz
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eddiepotts
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 08:57:11 AM »

If it is just frame or something hidden you can use ospho. I think that's how you spell it. I get it at Home depot for around $25 a gallon if I remember right. It comes in a green bottle in the paint department. it is an acid that converts the rust to a primer then paint over it with spray can undercoating. I have used it for years on my cars and never had a problem. It will eat concrete so put something down. I looked at the Home depot site and could not find it. But here is a link to it with reviews. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=557&familyName=Ospho+Metal+Treatment
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 08:59:18 AM by eddiepotts » Logged
bevans6
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 10:05:59 AM »

Ospho is another phosphoric acid product, there are a ton of them and I think they all work about the same.  As noted above, if you need to have show quality paint over it, you have to be really careful about how you prep after this kind of stuff.  I just use brush on paint like Rustoleum or POR-15 over it.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
Songman
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 10:20:52 AM »

I've used RustGrip and really like it. It is heavily used in marine and off-shore applications. Anything that can stand up to that can certainly stand up to my projects. I also used their thermal coating called SuperTherm. SuperTherm stops 99% UV, 92% Visual Light heat, and 92% conductive heat and cold. Additionally, it blocks 68% of sound waves. These products are made in Canada. I have a friend here in SoCal who is a distributor if anyone is interested. I have used both of these and will definitely use them on any future bus project.

http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/rustgrip.htm
http://www.eaglecoatings.net/content/supertherm.htm

I don't know if I would call these inexpensive. They are around $100 per gallon. But for what they offer I think it is a very good deal.
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steve wardwell
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 10:27:02 AM »

we owned a steel hulled schooner for 10 years and swear by a rust inhibitor called  Coreaseal.  We would remove all loose rust apply coreaseal  with a brush and paint in the correct color 2 days later. 5 times better than ospho  and seals tight and held up against the salt water. I know of a shipyard that will  slightly rust a new boat then apply coreaseal to aid in the adhesion of the next layers of paint to the hulls for a long lasting paint job.........s.......
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Sometimes the more I think about something the less I think about something.    As soon as I save a little money my bus finds out.                                      Why grab a plane when you can take the bus ?                         If I'm wrong 10% of the time how can the "Queen" be right 100%
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 10:56:58 AM »

While I have no particular experience in this area, I tend to stick by the old rule "Ya get what ya pay for!" or vise versa "If ya don't wanna pay, it ain't gonna pay!"
Grin  BK  Grin

But @ $30 gallon what ya got to lose? If it don't work pony up and buy something that does! It's a gamble either way, but hey so is owning a bus!

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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 11:18:50 AM »

I am saving up for some rustbullet myself. I used it when restoring my rabbit, and I was so happy with the quality of the product. Better than rustoleum, por-15, etc. A little goes a long way.

I recommend "doing it once, and doing it right"
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The Bus Girl
steve wardwell
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 11:27:12 AM »


"I recommend "doing it once, and doing it right"................................................................AMEN !!!                                                                                                                                                      
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 11:29:02 AM by steve wardwell » Logged

Sometimes the more I think about something the less I think about something.    As soon as I save a little money my bus finds out.                                      Why grab a plane when you can take the bus ?                         If I'm wrong 10% of the time how can the "Queen" be right 100%
robertglines1
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 11:32:32 AM »

to open up a can of worms....back in the day---we used diesel fuel sprayed on rusted barges (fresh water) let set a couple days then sprayed with enamel (oil based paint)did a good job on a large area that is abused and subject to year round weather..still do this on antique equipment..the diesel stopped the rust and soaked in and help enamel ad-hear..for what its worth...we also use a large tank with baking soda water mix and run 12 volt Thur piece to be DE- rusted to clean old rusted parts.leaves bare metal...old time practices..rite or wrong.it works for us..the modern way is for sure much better..trivia      
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belfert
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 11:46:10 AM »

This is actually for the used trailer I bought to pull behind my bus.  I am basically rebuilding the entire trailer.  I am replacing all of the aluminum skin on the entire trailer.  While the skin is off I need to fix all of the corrosion/rust issues.  Most of the rust is just heavy surface rust, but I actually have to cut out and replace a few pieces.  

I would prefer not to spend $150 to $200 on Rust Bullet because I have already spent a fair bit of money on the trailer.  For the bus it would be less of an issue.  I'm thinking I will just use a wire brush in my grinder to remove what I can and then use Rustoleum rusty metal primer.  Most of the frame should be nice and dry with new aluminum skins.

I'll have spent between 50% and 60% of the cost of a new trailer when I am done.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2010, 11:51:26 AM »

Living in the west without salt! Grin

Grant
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Grant Goold
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belfert
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2010, 12:08:25 PM »

Cost is just one reason I don't want to use Rust Bullet.  The other reason is the time required to get the Rust Bullet.  Shipping would take three or four days.  I am still hoping to be reinstalling the skin by Monday.

I started removing the old skin last night and discovered the rust is worse than I had thought.  I'm not sure how the uprights behind the skin are rusty all the way to the roof.  I understand why the bottom is rusty due to the salt exposure.  I don't think I will have any more rust issues with the parts covered by the aluminum skin if I clean and paint it.

I hate salt.  I never realized salt could cause that much corrosion to aluminum.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2010, 12:24:19 PM »

The epoxy primer I spoke of is about 120.00 for 2 gallons.
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 03:23:09 PM »

Walmart sells latex based Rust Converter in the auto body repair/paint section in small bottles, about 8/16 oz as I remember. It is not cheap by the gallon but large quantities will not keep unless used up quickly.

The only thing I've used that works goes by many names but it is all latex based which means it can be cleaned up with water before it sets up. After it dries it forms a very hard black crust over rust. It can be painted or not, doesn't seem to make much difference. There must be rust for it to work, it will not work on bare metal.

I used Naval Jelly for many, many years and it is nothing but a big pain - and it doesn't last.

Once I found this stuff I quit looking. Some of the newer names may be better, but I doubt it, and they are very expensive.

I use it on rusted battery boxes and fittings, the only thing I've ever used that stops that rust cold.

If it doesn't say it is latex based and makes a hard black crust I don't buy it. It is very thick and is easily applied with a brush or small roller. It also comes in spray cans but can thicken and become unusable in a short time. Wear gloves, it burns the skin and will burn into concrete floors, but is easily washed off with water.

Rustoleum never worked for me and a test by Consumer Reports said it didn't work any better than plain paint. Maybe it has improved, but I gave up on it long ago.
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belfert
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2010, 06:47:12 PM »

Okay, I'm getting a bit off my own topic.

I'm slowly dismantling the trailer to see the extent of the rust.  Areas in front of the wheels have almost no rust.  I suppose the back got road spray from the wheels in the winter.  There is only one place that needs metal welded in so far, but I know the front needs a bunch of welding work.  I wanted to get more panels off this evening but rain and mosquitoes chased me inside.

I suspect my plan of Rustoleum will work considering most everything will be covered up by aluminum skin.  I would like to use Rust bullet, but the extra cost and time I just don't want to invest in this thing.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 06:38:06 PM »

If you fasten steel to Al the best thing to use between the two is Zinc Chromate paint.
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PD4107-152
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belfert
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 09:09:55 PM »

It turns out that any part of the frame the customer can't normally see was not painted at all.  I was wondering why some parts of the frame were rusty when they were covered with aluminum.

My new aluminum skin is painted on both sides so I am not worried about corrosion between the dissimiliar metals.  The old skin corroded from road salt, not from the steel frame.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
gus
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 04:47:47 PM »

Brian,

I admire your optimism, but Al and steel connected will rust, it is just a matter of time. Normal paint will not stop this, the fasteners themselves are a path of corrosion. No matter which fastener you use it is not compatible with one of the metals. All it takes is dirt and/or water.

If you use aircraft type anodized fasteners they will sacrifice themselves by rusting and saving the base metals.

Again, Zinc Chromate primer between the two metals will make the best barrier you can use.

Rust converters are only useful where there is already rust.
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PD4107-152
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 06:49:35 PM »

Brian, looks like you have talked yourself out of sandblasting.  I really don't like sandblasting on assembled parts.  The sand gets into every crack, nook, and cranny and can destroy any rotating parts.

A few years ago, I would have recommended PPG DP40 as one of the best two part epoxy primers.  It was the best product on the market as far as I was concerned (had a lot of technical contact with PPG folks then).  However, it has been compromised and is now DP40LF (lead free).  Still a pretty good product, but not near as good as the "old days".

Gus, you sent me on a search.  I had been told that Zinc Chromate was no longer available.  Turns out that is not correct.

It was used in military aircraft in WWII.  I think it was mandated on old tube style planes (allowed inspectors to carefully check the frame, as it was a very thin, somewhat translucent coating).  Great stuff then.  I wonder how much it has been "watered down" today?

I found one source that looks like they have something very close to what I call the (old) formula:  http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ptizincchromateprimer.php

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2010, 02:21:34 PM »

Jim,

I buy almost all my aircraft stuff from AirSpruce, very good company and will do anything to keep a customer happy. I do get my ZC spray cans from them. I think it comes in cans for brushing but it is much easier to apply the correct amount with a spray can.

It is still widely used by light aircraft mechanics, mostly for small repairs, because nothing else does what it does. Don't know if it has been reformulated, but probably has, almost everything chemical has.

It was used in all aircraft for years, the military used thick coatings of dark green. Never knew why, probably because it cost more!! I always use a thin coat of the light yellow translucent stuff to avoid dark holes back in airframes, makes for easier inspections.

Epoxy primers are used mostly now for fabric covered aircraft steel airframes because it isn't affected by the fabric coatings.

Good point about thin coating, it is not supposed to be put on thick like other primers. There is a chemical reason for this but I forgot it after all these years. I do know it does the job. I think it has to do with allowing the metal to breath, but don't quote me on that!
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PD4107-152
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