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Author Topic: New Bus Owners and Stud Piloted Wheels  (Read 3761 times)
Dreamscape
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« on: August 21, 2010, 04:53:04 AM »

For those seasoned veterans you already know this.

I'm going to tell you a story of what happened and what we found out yesterday.

A little background. We have owned our coach since 2003, and have really enjoyed our hobby. We haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of traveling, but do get out once in a while. We took our coach down for some new shoes yesterday and found out something that I wish I had done a long time ago.

I always do a pre-trip inspection. You know, the kind where you check your fluids, do a walk around and check lug nuts on all wheels, look for critters that maybe building a home and hitching a ride. All the necessary stuff one should do before heading out into the wild blue yonder.

I pulled it into the shop anxiously waiting for the guys to jack it up and go to work. We have steel wheels on the duals, with Stainless wheel covers. They started on the rear axle, left side. Started to pull off the outer dual and found out that a few of the outer studs were turning and not allowing the outer nuts to come off. After further inspection they determined that they had not been tight for quite sometime. This cannot be determined just by checking lug nuts, as they were tight.

The comment was made they are very surprised that we hadn't lost a wheel. Somewhere down the road a previous owner or shop had not installed the correct outer studs, a few were for aluminum wheels. The flange is different than for steel wheels and did not properly seat against the inner wheel.

They pulled off the drums and installed all new inner studs on one side, and 4 on the other side. Replaced all outer studs, and was able to reuse most of the outer nuts. Replaced one leaking wheel seal and put everything back together. What was supposed to be a 1 1/2 hour job, ended up taking almost 5 hours. The hubs still looked good, which was a surprise as we expected to see some egged out holes.

Always have your work done on a weekday, not Saturday. They found only one seal here in Abilene, which could have been a two day wait if we had been a day later.

They installed new tires on the tags without removing the the aluminum wheel. I was amazed by that. They said they never remove the wheels when they are aluminum wheels to replace the tires, even on duals. One guy said he can do one in 15 minutes.

Bottom line, take your coach into a shop, or if you have the tools and the place to do it. Get it done! Even if you don't need tires, pull them off and do an inspection. What could have been a disaster, I ended up being embarrassed.

All in all it was a great day, and the ride home was even better. The feeling that I had by averting disaster and feeling so much safer was great. It made me think how lucky and blessed we were to have avoided a very bad situation.

Paul

« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 05:03:32 AM by Dreamscape » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 05:19:24 AM »

Paul, I had a driver call me back in the early eighties, said, "Jack, I just stopped and two tires and wheels are missing!" 
Now think about that for a minute...he had lost them...and had NO idea where they went...or what they may have hit!
After that we started torquing EVEY wheel...NEVER had a wheel issue after that.  (And we were running 175 trucks in a west coast team operation.)
Anther time a driver was sitting in his truck doing his log book and a tire came off a dilapilated truck about a half mile away, rolled up the hill, through a barbed wire fence, bounced off a building, then hit just above the top of the windshield right in front of his face!  Actually bowed the top of the roof edge down. 

Torque them wheels boys and gurls!
Jack
PS...good story Paul, glad it turned out well.
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 06:14:13 AM »

The only way that I know to check the torque on Budd inner nuts is to loosen off the outer nut on half of the nuts on the dual, torque the inner cones to spec, re-torque the outer nuts on those studs, then repeat for the other half of the studs.  You can't check the torque of the inner cone with the outer nut torqued.  Yeah, I've done this. 

Brian
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 07:22:39 AM »

Paul, good post it will amaze you how many think you can tighten the wheels using the just outer nut they get in a habit of doing that because of all the hub piloted wheels on roads today had a tire shop in Cameron Tx try and pull that on me

good luck
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 07:35:49 AM »

Owners of older buses really need to know about their coaches and proper maintenance.  It is getting harder and harder to find someone who knows about two strokes and that will become more common with stud piloted wheels.  Many of today's young mechanics and tire techs have never encountered them before and are lost.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 09:56:09 AM »

A fellow bus buddy who is a MC-9 owner had a so called bus repair shop do some work on the rear brakes on his coach.
When the mechanics helper put the rear duals back on he installed the budd studs on less the inside wheel  then installed the inside dual wheel on the budd studs put the outer wheel on and put the outer budd nuts on holding the two wheels on with just the outer budd nuts. Huh
Thank goodness my buddy caught the error before he drove out of the repair shop.
Folk's check out the repairs on your coach before you get in and drive it make sure it's done right. Grin
jlv
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 10:42:09 AM »

We happened to watch a program an tv last night that showed a truck that had lost both duals.  They went through the windshield of a car and put a guy in a coma for a month.  Seeing the picture of the car, it was a miracle that he survived. We couldn't see how the wheels could just fly off.  Now we know.

We had a similar thing told to us.  We had our bus in for some work, and the shop told us the previous person that had worked on it had put it back together wrong and the lug bolts were on the wrong side so the lugs could have spun loose.

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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 03:52:34 PM »

The PO put my front hubs on reversed.

I didn't notice this for a while but since I've had no problems I decided to leave them until I remove the front hubs. Then I'll reverse the hubs.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 05:07:08 PM »

The PO put my front hubs on reversed.

I didn't notice this for a while but since I've had no problems I decided to leave them until I remove the front hubs. Then I'll reverse the hubs.

Gus,
Could you give more detail, I don't quite understand what you mean reversed. I'm not saying yer wrong, but I don't recall it making a difference side to side on most models. (but once I thought I was wrong, and it turned out I was mistaken! Wink)
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2010, 05:22:06 PM »

Can any of you guys tell me why there are left and right threads on the wheels I know the reason for the drive axle but not for the tag, boogie or front wheels


good luck
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2010, 05:51:38 PM »

Clifford, I hope ya'll don't flame me too much for this but I always assumed it had to do with the rotation and them not being able to back off.
Jack
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2010, 04:31:20 AM »

BK,
    I think Gus means that the hub on the left side has right hand threads.
Luvr,
   When I worked as a mechanic many years ago (mid-late 60s) for a Dodge, Plymouth, Chrysler dealer all the Mopar csrs had left hand threads on the left side. I was told that his was to help insure the wheel nuts stayed tight. Jack
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2010, 05:33:55 AM »

Jack and Jack I was always told the same but a wheel rolling in the same direction on either side how does it work I am serious about this it never made sense to me using that theory all would need to be left handed threads 



good luck
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2010, 05:43:17 AM »

Clifford, I believe it has to do with the starting torque on the wheel. I wonder if this applies to drag racing or NASCAR? Wink

What is done on new coaches?

Paul
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2010, 05:48:34 AM »

A friend and i were out one very dark nite driving his dad's new 65 Dodge Coronet. We had a flat tire and no flashlite. Took us 20 minutes to figure out why we couldn't get the damn lug nuts off the wheel on that side. Grin
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 06:01:13 AM »

Paul, my new toy has right handed lug nuts all the way around but it is hub piloted and Nascar uses right handed nuts and they are always turning left I just never could figure this one out and over the years I have seen lots of buses and trucks changed over with all right handed stud pilot nuts and never had problems.
I believe all the hub piloted nuts are right handed


good luck
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 06:09:20 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2010, 06:31:14 AM »

I just wrote to a friend of mine who worked in engineering for Chrysler back when they had left hand wheel nuts to ask the engineering reason why.  It has to do with the taper of the lug, the fact that the diameter of the taper on the nut is infinitesimally smaller than the taper in the wheel but I really don't understand it.  Since it has to do with taper (that much I do  know), lug nuts that use washers on the wheels won't have a self tightening action.  I think, but I don't  know, that hub centric truck wheels usually don't have a taper seat.

Traditional fastener technology requires a pre-load in the bolt/stud to stretch it so that it's tensile force is what clamps the parts together and keeps the joint tight.  Nascar, modern cars and trucks, just do up the nut tight enough to stretch the stud so that it all stays clamped, doesn't move, and stays together, no magic.  If you torque up a stud past it's yield limit, it will stretch permanently and lose it's clamping force, we've all seen that with over-torqued wheel nuts.

If my friend comes back with an engineering description of how the taper works to self-tighten, I will copy it here.

Brian
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2010, 06:32:59 AM »

It might make sense to make them all the same, so some of the younger shop guys won't try to overtorque when removing!

Can this be done on our oldies? I'm leaving ours alone at least for now!

You brought up a good subject!
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2010, 06:43:10 AM »

Paul, when I was a young man my Dad owned a lot of trucks and trailers with the spoke type wheels all of those were right handed nuts on both sides well that is the way I installed them  lol



good luck
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 06:49:00 AM »

Clifford, You're showing your age! Grin
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 08:36:10 AM »

Clifford, You're showing your age! Grin

Paul he means "Dayton" hubs (not old time wagon wheels) that had like a 5 spoke hub with studs on them and a wedge and nut went on them to clamp the wheel in.
Had to tighten the wedges just right or they would wobble like crazy.
When I was taught to tighten 'm I was shown to put a coke bottle beside the tire and spin it watching for run out and you'd loosen opposite of that spot and tight at the spot and so on until it turned true!
Grin  BK  Grin
Also hated those lock rings on those split wheels
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2010, 08:37:59 AM »

Clifford I'm like you never made since to me either.
My theory has always been someone did it so others did too, because so & so must know something we don't!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2010, 09:42:40 AM »

BK, That is what I was thinking of, just didn't know what they were called.

Thanks for the history lesson! Cool
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2010, 02:36:51 PM »

BK,

Jack has it right.

My left hub has right hand threads and my right hub has left hand threads, just the opposite way it was originally. You can believe I always point this out to tire jockeys!

Just before I got the bus it had all new brakes and shocks so the mechanics obviously replaced the hubs reversed.

I had a '67 Barracuda with L and R wheel studs. I had them damaged so many times by air wrench jockeys that I finally just made them all RHT with no apparent problems of any kind.
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2010, 05:30:09 PM »

I always thought it was so truck drivers just had to remember "tighten toward the front".
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2010, 04:59:06 AM »

There is a legitimate self-tightening action with right and left hand thread tapered seat wheel nuts that has to do with the rotation direction of the wheel.  I used to know what did it, my engineer friend admits that it is there but also forgets.  It has to do with the way that a taper has different diameters top and bottom, if it loosens there is a small diameter on the nut touching a larger diameter on the  seat in the wheel, gyroscopic precession requires that the smaller diameter touches the larger diameter which is rotating slower than the smaller diameter of the wheel nut and kicks it forward, in this case towards tight rather than loose.  It sounds logical yet hocus-pocus to me, but working on race cars I know that it works on tapered knock-on or center lock wheel nuts, it's an observable phenomenon, but intuitively you would expect a nut on the axis of rotation to have a greater effect than the lug nuts on our wheels that are 5 inches out from the axis of rotation..

I was googling around and found an article that implied lower failure rates on heavy trucks for left hand thread on the left, but it was inconclusive.  MCI states that stud-centric wheels with taper nuts have left hand threads on the left but right hand threads all round for hub-centric wheels with non-tapered nuts.  In my opinion, it is reasonable to conclude that if a tapered or ball seat wheel nut is loose, from fatigue, yield in the stud, or other reasons, left hand thread on the left would probably act to keep the nut on the stud and possibly keep it marginally tight, but not very tight.  In other words, I think that for tapered and ball seat wheel nuts on buses, there is indeed a real reason for left hand thread on the left, but I have only a faint understanding of the physics involved.  I will have to go on trust and yes, I will be re-torquing the inner Budd nuts on the drives before my next trip....

 http://www.mcicoach.com/fyiFromMci/maintMatters/0410.htm

cheers, Brian
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2010, 05:56:09 AM »

The reason for left hand on the left & right hand on the right is IF the nuts become loose for what ever reason, they will not continue to back off due to the rotating action of the wheel. When going forward, the right side wheels are rotating clockwise from the nut's perspective, on the left side, the wheel is rotating CCW from the nut's perspective.

I had the pleasure of a tire shop leaving 3 nuts loose on the left rear of my car (I did a walk around to be sure they hadn't damaged the painted rims, center caps or trim rings, so I'm sure I'd have noticed a missing nut or 3). Later that day after the 3 nuts had left the studs, the 2 studs that were tight snapped off & let the wheel go its own way. I then checked all the tires & found some loose nuts on the right side, but they were still touching the rim.  Shocked

No, I don't think left hand threads on the left side is necessary, but it does provide another level of safety.
So, yeah, I'm a believer that the left handed threads are a good thing on stud piloted rims - even if it is a pain in the neck!  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2010, 11:25:43 AM »

That's exactly why I tighten my inside wheels 50 lbs worth of torque more than the outside on these old bud wheels.
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