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Author Topic: TORN BETWEEN TWO LOVERS... ER BUSES  (Read 3175 times)
Mex-Busnut
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« on: August 23, 2010, 10:22:33 PM »

As I stated previously, I am in the process of saving up for our bus. The bus we had originally selected is still available.  I described it here, close to the bottom of the page:

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=2547.371

There is a second bus available, which was just retired from the military and has had very good maintainance. Same company as the first (MASA = Mexicana de Autobuses). It is seven years older, 1985. Instead of a 6V92T and 7-speed, this one has an 8V71 and a ten-speed standard. The tires look like new. The reason it is tempting is that for the first bus I have to save up about another $5,000 U.S., and for this older bus, I have enough now.

Both come with Jake Brakes. #1 has a recent overhaul, and is owned by a long-time friend.

Here is a pix of a bus similar to #2. Notice the factory raised roof half-way back.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:25:29 PM by XE1UFO » Logged

Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
TomC
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 01:25:39 AM »

If you're going to travel in the western US around Colorado, Wyoming, explore the Sierra Nevadas, then the 6V-92TA would serve you better with its' turbocharger.  Then again, if you don't mind going up hills a bit slower, the 10spd on the 8V-71 would work well too.  I say get the bus NOW and get working!  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
bevans6
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 04:04:46 AM »

it's a very nice looking bus!  I like it a lot.  nothing wrong with an 8V-71 that a ten speed should fix, or sure help with!  Said he with a 8V71 with a 4 speed...

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 04:19:13 AM »

how about bus #2 and add a turbo
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Sometimes the more I think about something the less I think about something.    As soon as I save a little money my bus finds out.                                      Why grab a plane when you can take the bus ?                         If I'm wrong 10% of the time how can the "Queen" be right 100%
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 04:26:48 AM »

Steve took the words right out of my mouth!

I really like bus # 2 better!
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Dreamscape
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 05:04:50 AM »

I'll vote for #2 also! We have an 8v71N and a 4 speed box. I like the 10 speed, get it!

Paul
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 07:08:57 AM »

Driving the 10 speed may not be much different than the 7 speed - all depends on how the ratios are split & how they fit the motor's power curve.
Turbo won't loose as much power at higher altitudes as the non turbo.
If you keep the conversion light weight, the 8V71 will do fine.
You can always add a turbo or propane injection at a later date to the non turbo.

Drive both, then get the one that drives the best. The second one looks more classic, so that's the one I like.  Grin

decisions, decisions . . . .  Grin
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Mex-Busnut
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 07:28:47 AM »

Thanks to all of you for your ideas!

Kyle4501:
I understand the non-turbo engines lose 4% of their power for every 1,000 feet of altitude. Is that correct? How do yo add propane injection? What does it do?

TomC:
I am located in the heart of the Mexican Republic, at 6,800 feet above sea level. I live in San Juan del Río, Querétaro, 100 miles North West of Mexico City.  I do a ton of driving all over central and southern Mexico between 5,000 and 11,000 feet altitude, where the American Rockies end in a huge knot. So yes: Mountain-climbing ability is a definite plus.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
Highway Yacht
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 07:59:58 AM »

I also cast my vote for Bus #2.... Nice classic styling..
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kyle4501
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 08:27:43 AM »

I understand the non-turbo engines lose 4% of their power for every 1,000 feet of altitude. Is that correct? How do yo add propane injection? What does it do?

I have no details concerning how to add it, I have only heard from others that they had done it & it worked. I would think that if you asked around the truck repair shops, you would find someone who knows . . . . I would try to find several shops that have done it & then chose one to use.

Good Luck!
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 08:31:41 AM »

I've heard Utah Claim Jumper here on the board has done it and loves it!
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
TomC
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 08:48:26 AM »

I would add a Jake Brake too!  That was one of thee first things I did with my bus before I brought it home from Kelso, Wa.  Personally-like the 10spd better then the 7spd.  The 7spd, although it doesn't have a splitter, can be a bit cantankerous to shift at times.  Get the 8V-71-I have one in my bus and added a turbocharger, larger injectors, air to air intercooler bumping my power from 300hp and 800lb/ft torque, to 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque that really flatened the hills.  Course, in Mex, you can't really go that fast on the hilly two lane roads anyway.  And lots of buses there still with 8V-71's!  Nice thing about the 10spd, you can also skip shift-use every other gear most of the time and have all gears available for the steep hills.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 09:25:56 AM »

I would add a Jake Brake too!  That was one of thee first things I did with my bus before I brought it home from Kelso, Wa.  Personally-like the 10spd better then the 7spd.  The 7spd, although it doesn't have a splitter, can be a bit cantankerous to shift at times.  Get the 8V-71-I have one in my bus and added a turbocharger, larger injectors, air to air intercooler bumping my power from 300hp and 800lb/ft torque, to 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque that really flatened the hills.  Course, in Mex, you can't really go that fast on the hilly two lane roads anyway.  And lots of buses there still with 8V-71's!  Nice thing about the 10spd, you can also skip shift-use every other gear most of the time and have all gears available for the steep hills.  Good Luck, TomC

Tom I think he said both already have the Jake, and I also agree on the 10 Spd.
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
BG6
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 09:36:10 AM »

In the pics, it looks like the first bus is a transit, the second an intercity.

If this is true, the second would be my choice.  I would NEVER buy a transit to do a conversion.

For most driving, you need gears more than turbocharger, so the 8V71 with the 10-speed will do as well as the 6V92T with 7-speed MOST of the time.  You will notice the difference on long uphill pulls, but unless you plan to spend a lot of time going over steep grades, you will probably be just as happy with one as with the other.

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Mex-Busnut
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 10:01:58 AM »

While the second bus may LOOK like a transit with that strange boxy front end, it is a highway bus currently licensed and working in federal (nation-wide) tourism service.

Yes: BOTH buses already have the Jake brake installed.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
Mex-Busnut
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 10:04:47 AM »

I have one in my bus and added a turbocharger, larger injectors, air to air intercooler bumping my power from 300hp and 800lb/ft torque, to 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque that really flatened the hills. 

Mr TomC Sir:
It sounds like you have already been down here in Mexico.

Did you do this engine conversion yourself, or have it done? I would LOVE to find some information on how to do it?
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 10:49:26 AM »

I had Don Fairchild in Bakersfield, Ca do the change over.  Since I had a recent over haul on the engine, I figured it was still fresh enough to turbocharge.  I had a custom air to air intercooler made that fits in front of my radiator (my radiator sits in at least 8 inches since the engine mounting was made for a 96" bus, but mine is 102" wide).  Then took the bus to Bakersfield and Don pulled the engine and one of the cylinders to see what pistons and rings I had.  I do have the high compression pistons (18.7 vs 17 for turbo) but we figured to keep the boost around 15 psi and the rings are the tight transit rings-rather then loose (for more power) highway rings for truckers. Don changed the injectors from brown tag N65 to 9G75, did the plumbing for the turbo to air to air then to the engine, installed the Series 60 turbocharger with waste gate, and while the engine was out, I had my transmission rebuilt.  Don also replaced the ready to fail oil pump drive on the engine.
It ran great! But in the next six months after the job was done, I had the radiator built up from a 5 row straight fin to a 6 row serpentine fin (biggest I could fit in), replaced the stuffed up muffler with a 5" oval same side inlet and outlet Donaldson Turbo rated muffler, changed the air filter from a 6" to 7" opening and cut additional air vents, installed an auxiliary transmission cooler with electric thermostatically controlled fan, and installed two additional vents in the engine compartment door.  Everything with transmission overhaul was right at $17,000.00.  Then also installed 15 misters running off the water system in front of the radiator.  I know-everyone says that's a bandaide, but what do you do when you can't go bigger on the radiator? I recently drilled out two of the misters with 1/16" drill-man now they really dump alot of water and really bring the temp down.  Was it worth it-I think so since I only have a 3 spd Allison automatic.  With a 10spd, I may have just got it more finely tuned.
If you do get the bus with the 8V-71, open one of the valve covers to see what injectors are being used.  Ideally in altitude, you want N60's, and with a 10 spd should be good. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
busdriver58
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2010, 10:50:56 AM »

...  Get the 8V-71-I have one in my bus and added a turbocharger, larger injectors, air to air intercooler bumping my power from 300hp and 800lb/ft torque, to 375hp and 1125lb/ft torque that really flatened the hills....

TomC,

I remember to have read that you did this on your engine how much is the cost to install Turbo on a 8V71?

Sorry for the hijack but I have this question from a long time ago...


EDITED:

You was writing the answer when I was writing also, anyway thanks.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 10:59:50 AM by busdriver58 » Logged

Chihuahua, MX
1969 Eagle 05 8V92/Auto &
1964 Eagle 01 8V71/Std
Mex-Busnut
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2010, 11:08:40 AM »

Yikes! That is a good amount of money! $17,000 would be 265% of what the #2 bus would initially cost me ($6,400). The #1 bus, with the 6V92TA, would be less than $10,500 U.S. initial cost. So maybe long-term it might be a better deal.

One great blessing I have down here is labor costs, as well as machine shop costs. The complete overhaul of my friend's 6V92T in his bus (parts and labor) was $19,000 pesos (approximately $1,520 U.S.)

I forgot to mention one thing about bus #2 that I did NOT like. The floor raises up about 6 feet down the aisle behind the driver's seat. I believe it is a take-off of an American model from the fifties. Maybe it was the ScenicCruiser?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 11:15:12 AM by XE1UFO » Logged

Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 11:27:48 AM »

Yes, that's like the Scenicruiser, which I consider the most beautiful coach ever built. 

If you do a little planning, that rise to the "deck" can work in your favor.  The front is your living room, the public area, and back on the deck you put all the "back of the house" stuff (kitchen, bath, bedroom).

The real question is SIZE.  Get the one with more space inside.  I'm fulltiming in a 40-foot-long, 96"-wide TMC, and would miss every inch lost if it were a 35-footer.  If I ran into a 45-foot 102" wide coach at a good price, I would seriously consider buying it.  My dream would be a 45-foot 102" Scenicruiser!
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Len Silva
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 01:34:49 PM »

The second bus definitely has a superior cool factor.  What else matters?
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2010, 01:58:03 PM »

The second bus definitely has a superior cool factor.  What else matters?

Wink
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
TomC
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2010, 02:14:59 PM »

Talking in percentages, from buying my bus, I've spent 2375% more to convert it.  Buses are expensive, no matter what you do to them-whether it be buying windows, tires, new engine, transmission, etc.  Being commercial vehicles, they both are the most expensive and longest lasting vehicles available.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2010, 05:22:42 PM »

I have to vote with the go now #2 bus. the terrrain you have to traverse might make you want to wait for the 6v92 but by then somthing else might pop up. for #1 bus $ you could find something converted if you dig hard. while looking at your #1 picture i see you asked some ?'s about our GMCI suspension. The work was done in NC at Dean's Coach (RIP) and the guage was just for testing during the build. good luck.
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2010, 06:18:48 PM »

I am very thankful to all who have answered my posts! I am learning a lot from all of you!

And the excited public is overwhelmingly in favor of bus #2!

One more question: Would I totally ruin the looks of this bus if I raised the roof above the window line about 10 inches?

I am adding a few more pictures of Masa Somex buses of this body style so you can better give me your educated opinions.

Thanks in advance!

Dr. Steve, central old Mexico
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
busdriver58
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2010, 06:33:47 PM »

I'm from Mx and live in north Mx, I also like the #2, not too much because I'm not a fan from those mexican buses, nothing like a Sultana talking about older buses here in MX

Certainly if you raise a MASA will look strange, I never have seen one with that modification and the windshields are not too tall.
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Chihuahua, MX
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1964 Eagle 01 8V71/Std
Mex-Busnut
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2010, 06:51:13 PM »

Hey, Busdriver58:

I sent you a personal message several days ago, amigo.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
Jake brakes
100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2010, 07:00:00 PM »

Sorry amigo, PM answered.
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Chihuahua, MX
1969 Eagle 05 8V92/Auto &
1964 Eagle 01 8V71/Std
steve wardwell
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2010, 07:41:35 PM »

Wow  hot tuna !I have to admit, I'm a sucker for shiny busses........If your friend got all that work for $1500  maybe you can realize the same kind of savings to add the turbo and exteras  for about 10% of what it might cost us ...food for thought.....still like the idea of a 8/71 not working as hard as a 6/92 for similar power
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 08:12:30 PM by steve wardwell » Logged

Sometimes the more I think about something the less I think about something.    As soon as I save a little money my bus finds out.                                      Why grab a plane when you can take the bus ?                         If I'm wrong 10% of the time how can the "Queen" be right 100%
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