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Author Topic: Update for Hcklbery in Spokane, need advise.  (Read 4432 times)
Don4107
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« on: August 24, 2010, 10:19:51 PM »

We removed the drive shaft and the yoke/flange from the diff.  I don't have a socket or wrench big enough to fit the nut that holds the yoke on the trans.  Appears to be about 2 3/16" or 2 1/4".  The yoke is badly damaged.  The manual for our 4107 says torque for 'companion flange nut' is 500-550.  Suggestions?

The drive shaft also broke about half of the studs, flush with the drum, that appear to hold the parking brake drum to the "drive pinion flange'.  The remaining studs are all hammered and stretched.  Wish I had an exploded view of the brake assembly.  The pix in the 4107 manual shows the flange still having the mounting holes for the drum but of course none of the other brake parts.

That's the good news.  The bad news is the drive shaft bent and chewed up the mount for the air bag.  Pushed it outboard enough that the bottom of the bag mount is rubbing the inside dual.  The airbag bottom mounting plate and the piston (GM's terminology) that sits on top of it are both missing pretty good sized chunks on the inboard edge. There are sharp edges that will take out the airbag in short order. 

Most of the bend is in the vertical tube that connects the bag mount to the beam that runs fore and aft under the diff and has the other airbag on the forward end.  The horizontal beam is distorted a little by the twisting motion of the vertical tube being hammered outboard.  I don't know if it would be more work to replace the whole beam or just fabricate a new upright/bag mount.  Probably depends on whether there is a replacement available/affordable.  Pretty big job to R&R.  I should have taken a camera along.

If we can get the yoke off and drive line replaced, we can at least get it moving. 

Don 4107





 
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
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1966 GM PD 4107 for sale
1968 GMC Carpenter
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 10:42:05 PM »

does he have spring brakes?  Would save you some time if you didn't need to mess with the shaft brake.   FWIW if the shaft  brake is like the one on the '04 it's pretty easy to take apart.  Maybe this helps.

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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 11:10:12 PM »

not to hi-jack the thread, but should i have a parking brake besides the airbrake? as i have none. on my 4106
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thomas f  Bethlehem n.h
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 11:31:14 PM »

Don,

That nut is 2 1/8". You'll probably need to use a 3/4" drive air wrench to remove it. Do you know anyone with a service truck and compressor that could help?

If you can get the yoke off, I can supply it, as well. I've got 3 of those transmissions, one of which has a busted case that I've kept for parts, just in case. It's got a good yoke on it.

I've got an exploded view of the parking brake and the rear axle, but the files are too large to attach here. If you'll PM your email address, I'll send them to you.

Zub; I doubt he has spring brakes as that is not an easy install on a 4106. Not enough room unless you move the chamber mounts or use Mini Max chambers, which are hard to find (I've got 2 sets if anyone needs any).

Thomas; Yes, you should have a parking brake. When you say air brake, I assume you're talking about the ICC emergency brake that's operated be a small lever to the right of the seat. It only works as long as you have air pressure.  It is not a parking brake.

Bob

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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 04:39:11 AM »

  "The manual for our 4107 says torque for 'companion flange nut' is 500-550.  Suggestions?"
        To remove it:
    1=    With a bottle jack, under the breaker bar, you will be able to break it loose, as long you got break on wheel.
    2=   a ratchet strap would work also if you got 2' of breaker bar.
                 I used this on wheel lug nut & it work.
                 wrench
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 06:18:21 AM »

all i have is a big red button on the control panel that needs air to release, nothing else.
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thomas f  Bethlehem n.h
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 07:25:30 AM »

Wrench,

The problem is they are disconnected from the diffferential, so the brakes wont help. The only thing they have to keep the nut from turning is engine compression and that ain't gonna do it.

Thomas; sounds like your bus has been converted to spring (or mini max) brakes already. That big red button is not original equipment on your 4106.

Bob
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 07:33:10 AM »

since this is a GM, couldn't you take the top off the gearbox and put it in two gears at once to lock it so that you can undo that big nut?  The interlocks are in the shifter on top of the gearbox, so with it off you could just put the dog clutches in first and third.  Just an idea, I thought that the top of the gearbox is pretty easy to get at in a GM and (not that it's the same thing) that's how I lock up race gearboxes so I can take them apart, I put them in two gears at once.

Apologies in advance if this is a dumb idea...    Cheesy

Brian
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 08:30:46 AM »

Brian; In my opinion (for what ever that is worth) the 2 gears at once is a great idea.
   Much better than the shop supervisor telling me to fill the cyls. with water to remove the flywheel nut on a VW...Cable
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 08:46:48 AM »

Thinking on it a little more, depending on how the GM spicer shifter works you might be able to put it in reverse and third or fourth at the same time.  I don't think there is an interlock between the reverse shift rail and the 3/4 shift rail.  You may be able to do this with the top on the gearbox but with the shift linkage disconnected.
Edit:  I just went out and tried this on the 8844 shifter that I have in the shop, and it doesn't work on it - if it's in reverse both other rails are locked out.  Sorry...   Taking the top off will definitely work,, I just don't know how hard it is to take the top off the gearbox in your bus.  As will putting it in a gear and using the impact wrench, in all likelihood.  I was just brainstorming ideas...

Cable - the race boxes I run are all Hewlands, and all based on the VW gearbox design.  Even up to the 90's versions in F3000 cars, you look at it and squint, it's a VW box design evolution.  My own gearboxes actually use VW cases (from one or other of the air-cooled flat four vehicles, i forget which).  I put them in reverse and 4th to undo the nuts.

Brian
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 09:39:28 AM by bevans6 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 08:58:10 AM »

Brian,

Hmmm.......I've never tried that with these transmissions, but it'd be worth a try.

Another option might be the 3/4" impact wrench run off of the bus's air system. Depends, I guess, on what tools are available.

Bob 
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 10:07:21 AM »

I put them in two gears at once.
Apologies in advance if this is a dumb idea...    Cheesy
Brian

If its works its a "Great Idea"

My favorite posts are some of the "out of the box" thinking on here.

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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 01:16:46 PM »

Hello ALL.
An explanation as to why I haven't been on is, I think in order.
As I have said before I am set up to tap into the WIFI wireless Internet signals commonly called Hotspots. This is a great way of free Internet for fixed income travelers, ( The best way of course is the traditional pay for it method(more reliable)) My antenna is not as string as I would like but all I could afford at this time. That said to explain that the signal I am able to pick up in at the extreme range of my current configuration and so sun spots and even wind can effect my ability to maintain the connection. I had to wait until after 12 noon for the sun to orientate behind me as this puts me between my signal source and the sun which magnetically effects the signal stretching it out enough towards me to connect with it.

Layman's terms ?
I'm back !!!  Grin
for a little while.

Luke at US coach said he would send (NO CHARGE) a fully assembled unit with the trans yoke and the companion flange (DID YOU KNOW THERE WERE THOSE OF SUCH CALIBRE STILL LEFT ? (He belongs in this forum as he would fit right in as a close and dear relative.)

HOWEVER: the unit he had is wrong to my measurements and he is off today and I am having phone connection problems.
SOO the parts source has not been firmed up yet so leaving options open as of yet.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO BE A SIMPLE SOLUTION EVENT.

DON:
THANK YOU>
Bottom of the heart thank you.
and thanks for posting an update as you did in my absence of not being able to connect up to do so for all to know. I am working on getting the loan of a small compressor (100psi) and air tools, will try to let you know.
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 03:19:45 PM »

Quote from: Hcklbery
Luke at US coach said he would send (NO CHARGE) a fully assembled unit with the trans yoke and the companion flange (DID YOU KNOW THERE WERE THOSE OF SUCH CALIBRE STILL LEFT ? (He belongs in this forum as he would fit right in as a close and dear relative.)

HOWEVER: the unit he had is wrong to my measurements and he is off today and I am having phone connection problems.
SOO the parts source has not been firmed up yet so leaving options open as of yet.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO BE A SIMPLE SOLUTION EVENT.

DON:
THANK YOU>
Bottom of the heart thank you.
and thanks for posting an update as you did in my absence of not being able to connect up to do so for all to know. I am working on getting the loan of a small compressor (100psi) and air tools, will try to let you know.

Yes Luke has come to busnuts aid many times! As well as many other nuts such as Don, Jerry, and Bob, and many many more!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 08:19:38 PM »

Elijah,

You might want to hold off on gathering the air tools.  I think I can arrange the use of a large impact and maybe even a service truck to run it.  My son works for a large farmer that has a couple.  I did some lathe work for them a while back and I think they would be happy to help.  

If not I will put together a surge tank so we can run it from my smaller compressor. I have been wanting one anyway.

The best plan would probably be to wait until we have the replacements in hand so we only need to borrow the stuff once.

If we get the service truck they also have a 1" gun so we could remove the wheels with no sweat to get a better look at and possibly repair the bent air bag support.  Next time you talk to Luke ask if he has a "piston", the part that is kinda cone shaped that sits on top of the support. That is the one that has a few chunks missing.  If we can bend the support back, we can probably make a new plate for the top of the support which is also missing some chunks.

We probably should work on getting the brake drum taken care of while we are waiting on parts.  Will see when I might be able to get back in to do that.

Don 4107
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 08:57:26 PM by Don4107 » Logged

Don 4107 Eastern Washington
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 08:30:32 PM »

Why  not  put it in reverse and bump the starter, With the pull bar secured in place. HTH, Glen
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 05:38:43 AM »

Wrench,

The problem is they are disconnected from the diffferential, so the brakes wont help. The only thing they have to keep the nut from turning is engine compression and that ain't gonna do it.

Thomas; sounds like your bus has been converted to spring (or mini max) brakes already. That big red button is not original equipment on your 4106.

Bob
      OUPS again!!!!!!!!    I did get to second page before posting!!! = same as stated by RG.

        OUPS, I tough it was on the diff end, there should be a way to lock up the flywheel(this may have a lot of springing)? or put the breaker bar agains something & use the starter with the tranny in forward or reverse to match the unscrewing rotation of the nut.
 FWIW.               wrench
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 05:43:23 AM by wrench » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 05:47:51 AM »

After all is said and done with this repair, I think we would all like to see a postmortem on this failure.

Was it a poor maintenance issue or parts failure?

Len
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 06:49:21 AM »

I need some measurements on the drive shaft and also is it a flange or yoke type or a flange on one end and a yoke on the other end ,Eddie has 5 different shafts to select from 



good luck
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 03:42:20 PM »

Len:
I purchased this bus nearly finished conversion from a guy who had it for 9 mths and drove it maybe a couple thousand miles, He bought it with apprx 32,000 miles on the rebuild which included the drive train from the son of the older gentleman who did all the work on it with the intent to travel etc but passed before he could enjoy much of it. That puts it in my hands at apprx 34,000 milies on this new drive live u-joints if indeed they were replace which I believe they were as the trans was gone thru and a new clutch inplaced. I drove it apprx 300 miles to home and took it to a Pilot truck stop shop to have the oil changed and all greased as well as a good inspection done.
I must by necessity depend on the labor quality of such means as this. Fast forward to present after apprx 800 miles and this failure occurs.
The u-joint caps appear clean of all or any residual grease if it was at all greased. I am told that the heat and centrifugal force can do this but I wonder at the lack of grease on the surrounding areas from the flinging action. I at first thought that the possibility was that forgetful installers failed to grease it at the first, but now consider the possibility that the u-joints suffered a premature metal stress failure due to incorrect parts.
I form this hypothesis on a number of factors.
1st. I am certain that after 32,000 miles if grease was never added this type of failure would of been after only a very short time, well within ten thousand miles I should think what with the load and all.
2nd. This means that grease had to of been properly used and so even if the Pilot Truck service hadn't done their job and greased it that still would not answer as the plain fact is that after proper install and initial service the U-joints are reliable to last several thousands of miles before any dryness begins to occur initiating the failure effect.
3rd. Per Luke at US Coach the drive line measurements I have provided him as measured off of this driveline are not the measurements I should be seeing if the correct driveline was installed.

This leaves the strong possibility in my mind that the incorrect parts including the u-joints were used resulting in increased friction and looseness causing catastrophic premature failure from over stress and heat tolerances.
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 04:15:53 PM »

A couple of years ago, I had a  U joint fail on the drive shaft of the hockey team's MCI D3. Not as much collateral damage as on yours thankfully.

The cause was dry U joints, in spite of me greasing them regularly. I was greasing them without looking for grease oozing out of the seals at all 4 corners, just assuming it was good enough. The grease was going into some of the joints, but not all of them. Blame it on the PO's neglect. I found this out upon close examination of the failed parts.

I learned a lesson from that episode, and I hope you guys reading this learn too. Make sure you grease often and properly...

I wish Hcklbery a fast and easy recovery from his troubles.

JC

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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 05:06:35 PM »

luvrbus
The measurements off mine are not likely to be good, I think Luke is looking. the trans splice yoke is much like any passenger car or light trk differential u-joint yoke complete with center bolt and appears to be a spline shaft. The other side at the differential is a flat disk type mount (8 in dia, 8 bolt companion flange) that has a yoke for receiving the u-joint, this mounts to the outer back side of the inline brake drums flat surface.

The measurements of the shaft that came off is as follows. (tho no likely to be much of use as Luke says it is the wrong measurements for the shaft that belongs in this bus.)
Closed is about 21" open is 27 ( apprx) travel is apprx 5 5/8" with 16 splines. The space between welds on the male is 5 3/4". The dust cap is busted up and in the way of closing so interferes but may be off only by a 1/4 or so.
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2010, 10:41:46 PM »

Long day.  Was gathering stuff to go work on your bus.  Had fire call this AM.  Got home late this evening.  High winds and tall wheat.  Bad mix.  Never saw ash blowing and drifting like snow before.  Good news no structures lost or people injured.  I'm all in.  Talk to you tomorrow.

Don 4107
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2010, 03:11:24 PM »

I saw it on the news very hectic indeed.
I was able to get a tow over across the street and the Internet connection is at 98% signal strength so communications restored. I am only to happy to wait according to your time frame.
Eli.
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2010, 06:32:57 PM »

Hi, B.K. asked me to post something about what happened to us when our drive shaft fell out. I dont know if it will be a lot of help, but, this is what happened. The drive shaft fell completely out going down 285 north, in Atlanta. We were very lucky that it wasnt worse than it was. It took out the oil filter, and fell on the hwy. We had had a vibration for a long time. We had it in several shops and no one found what was causing the problem. The u joints were replaced, rear axle rebuilt, etc. Then, we were on our way to Choo Choo to let them look it over when it happened. Several cars behind us got damaged from it, but no one got hurt, thank goodness. They had to stop the traffic on the hwy to pick up the pieces. Then, we had it hauled to choo choo, and Joel found the problem. When the motor was replaced, not by him, the engine cradle support brackets were not installed, NONE were there at all. This let the cross member in front of the bumper  crack and drop down. This allowed the transmission to flex upwards and give it the extreme vibration, that led to it falling out. We pull a trailer with a vehicle on it for work. It is good that the trailer wasnt on there when it happened.  Anyhow, it all started with vibration. 
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2010, 06:57:35 PM »

When my drive shaft went I was having vibration too.

I thought it was the front tires because they were extremely cupped.

The vibration did not seem to make a difference with speed which kind of surprised me.

I had my drive line replaced that time and once more -- I took it out to have it balanced because I still was feeling some vibration and it had too much play in the splines.

I am now very sensitive to ANY vibration.

Melbo

HTH

YMMV
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2010, 07:42:48 PM »

Speed didnt matter too much with ours either. It seemed to do it more going up or down hills. Yeah, vibration, and worry of fire both worry me, as we have been through both.
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2010, 08:03:13 PM »

Don was over (just left) he has the measurements he was needing in reference to the transmission yoke center bolt, he also took a look at the in-line brake drum and the bolts that mount the drum to the inner flange, as the bolts were damaged and he had concern that it may need to be further worked on but as it appeared that only a couple bolts I think he said three were damaged insufficient were left to hold it on secure we decided to leave it alone and just replace the bolts that we could and tighten down the others, however the airbag is damaged.
I had to move the bus across the street, because where it was the business agreed to allow me to stay until today, which was very gracious of them.  By the way if anybody wants to say thank you to them for helping out a fellow busnut the business name is Marie calendars restaurant and bakery located in Spokane Washington just North of Highway 95 at Argonne exit which is exit number 287 down on the left. Their manager's name is Dan and the phone number there is 509) 922-4123 their actual address is 2111 North Argonne Road, Spokane Valley Washington 99212.
It would be great if any Busnuts coming through Spokane Valley would remember this business as being friendly, anyway thought it was worth mentioning.
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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2010, 05:55:42 PM »

Mine had Vibration too but thought is was the clutch needing adjustment, NEVER would of considered the drive-line. In all my automotive experience the drive-line just never goes after only 38 thousand miles. Can't recall once that happened. Sure am gonna watch this new one like a hawk.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. sure am gonna listen close so just keep talking as much as you want to. I am very interested in hearing what anyone has to say.
YOU ALL ARE GREAT< JUST GREAT>
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2010, 09:46:38 AM »

There are heroes in this disparaging world,,,
YET!!!
STILL!!!
If your visiting this forum it means only one thing.
You've no further to look, for you've just stumbled upon a passel of um and it can transform you from feeling alone and despaired to a restored faith in your fellow man's capacity for the milk of human kindness.
You are;
Among Friends.

Sorry for the corny-ness but I just HAD TO say it.
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2010, 02:15:49 PM »

Keeping it alive bros, just keeping it alive.
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2010, 01:04:57 PM »

  Just wanted to bump this to find out whats happening. Soooo, whats happening??
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2010, 02:12:55 PM »

Hi.
the drive shaft was sent from Luke at US Coach last week and arrived just last night, Don is coming over today to install and hopefully pull the airbag support back away from the tires where the drive-line bent it so as to at least make me mobile until the replacement beam arrives from Wildbob which should be on the 13th.
Everyone should know the heroes here for Luke sent the drive-line with both flanges at no charge and wildbob did the same with a pay me when you can AND Don4107 has been doing the labor and driving some distance and buying additional tools that he needed at his own expense.
I had heard of those who were this generous and caring when referencing generations now long gone but didn't expect to witness it in my own time.
It leaves you feeling humbled and proud all at the same time. AND GRATEFUL, VERY VERY GRATEFUL.
Compassion and nobility may well be harder to find but by no means gone entirely from among us,

I know. I've seen it.
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This is a 64 4106 4 sp shft 8v71/Appreciate ANY advice/info. A complete Novice.
Hcklbery
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« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2010, 07:51:46 PM »

Hey ALL
wanted to let you know I drove it today to the RV Dump and Gas station and it runs great really great, NO more vibrations,
Thank God.
and Thank You Don and His sons and Bob and certainly not at all least Luke at US Coach.

we/ Don that is and his sons got the driveline installed so now just wait on the airbag beam and install that and should be finished with these repairs.
Thank You ALL OF YOU Especially Don,Josh & Reed Evans and Wild man Bob AND NEVER forget Luke for your invaluable help and assistance.
EVERYONE of you have been a GOD SEND.

Eli.
PS
After reading this I realized I had left out a very important person and that is Mrs Evans (Don's wife Rita) Thanks Rita for lending your husbands time and efforts as well as the resources provided, very gracious indeed.
What a load off my shoulders when my home again moved under it's own power.

Thank YOU ALL.
AND MOST OF ALL
Thank you GOD.
for so great a noble group of people.
An example for which to truly live by.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 06:11:53 PM by Hcklbery » Logged

This is a 64 4106 4 sp shft 8v71/Appreciate ANY advice/info. A complete Novice.
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