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Author Topic: Should RV's Require DOT Stuff  (Read 7219 times)
cody
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2010, 08:23:41 AM »

There are too many laws now, it's like the 10 commandments, I just finished them off by coveting my neighbors garden tractor and libby tells me there are actually 600 more, I don't know what to do anymore, I only have so many hours in a day, now if we have more laws, how will I live long enough to break them all.  Grin
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bevans6
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2010, 08:36:25 AM »

Belfert, I have no idea about the 30 day under chassis inspection anywhere other than here, where I researched the rules that apply to me (this one doesn't, btw).  If you think about it, every other commercial vehicle on the road that uses air brakes needs to have a daily inspection where the driver signs a legal document attesting to the fact that he personally inspected the brake push-rod extension of all of the cans and examined the under carriage for loose, chafing hoses and all of that.  If he did it or not I have no comment, he signed a legal document saying that he did.  It's virtually impossible to do the same thing on a highway coach.  The only way I have to examine my rear brakes is to take the wheels off, not having a pit.  So operators of highway coaches need to have their brake push-rod extension measured and perhaps adjusted, and have the rest of the stuff a driver can't really see or check underneath every 30 days or 12,000 Km.  Note that any qualified person holding the appropriate certificate can perform the inspection, so your buddy no doubt had a tech on site who did this routinely.  I find it highly doubtful that any commercial highway coach operator would let a bus run for a month without checking it out.  It probably got checked out every couple of days.  Which brings up a good point - a "DOT Inspection" can be done by the operator of the vehicle or anyone else as long as they are qualified and certified to do so, it doesn't have to be some government agency.  I have no idea about the rules for carrying copies of the inspection reports other than here, either.

here is the relevant bits and a copy of the inspection requirement.  I do the equivalent about twice a year, or every 6,000 km the way I  use my bus...  Note: Any of the defects listed in the Schedule 4 inspection put the vehicle out of service and it cannot be  driven until rectified.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/bus/regulations/daily/page4a.shtml

"A motor coach may be inspected using Schedule 2 only, or may be inspected using Schedules 3 and 4 in combination with each other.
    If a schedule 3 and 4 combination is used:

        * the driver conducts a Schedule 3 inspection and completes an inspection report, which is valid for 24 hours.
        * an under-vehicle inspection technician (technician) conducts a Schedule 4 under-vehicle inspection and completes an inspection report, which is valid to the end of the 30th day after the day of inspection or for 12,000 km, whichever comes first.
        * the driver must have a valid Schedule 3 inspection report and a valid Schedule 4 inspection report to drive the coach.
        * a towed trailer is inspected using Schedule 2."

Cheers, Brian



« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 08:41:10 AM by bevans6 » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2010, 09:03:04 AM »

I am not a professional driver, but do have a CDL (class A).  I do not think in the US that a driver has to sign anything relative to his daily inspection.  I think the only documented inspection is the annual DOT inspection.

Something I forgot to mention before.  Folks feel comfortable that they have AUTOMATIC slack adjusters and don't need to perform a brake push rod inspection.  That is ***terrible*** thinking.  Our buses sit for long periods of time an automatic adjusters fail (had one fail on my bus and the brake was very close to "over caming"). 

You can get the equivalent of a DOT inspection almost anywhere.  I think most any shop will do the equivalent inspection without any official paperwork.  You can do it yourself if you are a good mechanic and follow the described inspection procedure. 

I can't say it strong enough, either do your own inspection (using DOT procedures), or have someone do it at least every two years.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2010, 09:05:04 AM »

  Couple of years ago I was taking my lunch break with the head of GVW here. We look over at the highway
 and here is a big fancy 40ft RV pulling a pick-up on a trailer with a nice sized boat hooked to the tailer.
  He just looked at it and shook his head. You'd be surprised at the number of big 5th wheels with boats behind
 pull past my place every weekend as they go to the lake. They have more than max'd out what the pick-up was
 designed to pull.

 The point being is the people on this board are a minority of what is out there.
 Would I welcome more stringent oversight on us with large RV's no would I understand the reason
 for it--- yes.

 Skip (DOT worker and no I'm not after your money)
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2010, 09:35:31 AM »

  I lived in Minnesota my whole life, over 50 years. Living in the NW metro area of Minneapolis, and have watched the Exodus of campers heading North on the big holiday weekends so many times I feel I can speak on the subject with some knowledge. Fishing opener, Memorial Day weekend, Fourth of July, and Labor Day are BIG. On a Friday you can watch Campers heading north on 169 ALL DAY LONG, and they are bumper to bumper. Converted School busses, Pickup Campers, Cars pulling trailers, pulling boats, pulling four wheelers, Jet Ski's, and piled down and loaded with Beer and Food and Ice and Camping gear, and fishing equipment, and anything else you can name or think of. And then there are the BIG RIGS, your 5th wheels, your 45 foot motorhome busses, and they are all pulling vehicles and crap too. I'm serious, they stream through from morning til late at night. They show it on the 6 O'clock news via Helicopter, lines of rigs heading off in every direction as far as the eye can see.

  No one regulates them, Minnesota has no annual safety inspections on vehicles. They dont have CDL's. They arent all DOT compliant. Wheres all the wrecks and carnage? The RV people arent the problem. Its the drunks in their lil POS cars, people speeding on crotch rockets, kids in hot sports cars and pickup trucks. Open your eyes people.

 

 
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bevans6
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2010, 09:41:13 AM »

Jim, the requirement for daily inspection would seem to be a Federal requirement in the US, under USDOT section 396.11 and 396.13

http://zachry.advanceonline.com/cm/library/government/49cfr/396.htm#Sec.%20396.11

When you read it you see that it's actually a post-trip inspection, the inspecting driver has to sign it, the next driver only has to sign it if there are defects listed, and it has to be carried with the vehicle and kept on file with the company.  I was kind of amused to see that if the driver isn't able to file the report with the company each day, he has to mail it in each day.  I wonder how often that happens.

I would walk before I had to do all that to drive my bus.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
buswarrior
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2010, 09:49:42 AM »

Jim, if you were close to a cam-over, then it sounds like the auto slack WAS working, drawing up the excess free play in the brake stroke in order to keep the linings close to the drum.

A cam-over is a combination of conditions in which all the brake parts inside the drum are, together, too small to prevent the s-cam from rotating all the way around, dropping the rollers off into the back side of the cam.

Dis-assembly of the wheel end is required to put these back where they belong, and there will be no way to squeeze the brake on with the parts all hung up.

Cam-over is triggered by a combination of things:

Drums that are oversized or beyond tolerances for the inner circumference, and/or using rollers of too small a diameter to match the interior measure of the drum.

Mismatching the S cam for the application, having too small a cam, will also allow it to rotate too far and allow the rollers to fall off the end.

And wear induced sloppiness in the movement of parts in extreme cases will contribute to the space needed to get the rollers off the end of the cam.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2010, 10:48:59 AM »

Brian, I have been doing a bunch of searching to see if I can find the annual inspection procedure (FMCSA 396.17).  So far no luck.  In the search, I did find the day end report.  Never heard of it before. 

Buswarrior, I might not have used the correct term.  The automatic slack adjuster was locked up.  The brake rod travel was very long.  I put an new slack adjuster on, adjusted it and everything was good.  The travel was so far, that the brakes were not releasing on that wheel.  You are correct that the "S" cams would not go over center for this problem, but something was locking up and not fully releasing.  Worked fine after the replacement, so not a wear or part issue.

Now, back to trying to find the procedure.  Can't believe that it is not published on the FMCSA site to allow owners to do their own inspection before the formal inspection.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2010, 11:29:57 AM »

Jim,

  THis link to the pdf will have more than you may want but it has it all

  http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-security/eta/ETA%20Final%20508c.pdf

 Enjoy

 Skip
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2010, 11:57:16 AM »

Jim, 396.17 is on the page I left the link for above, and here:

http://zachry.advanceonline.com/cm/library/government/49cfr/396.htm#Sec.%20396.11

you just have to scroll down a couple of paragraphs.

Brian
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1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2010, 12:01:08 PM »

I can not see the reasoning behind you guys thinking the RV market does not meet DOT standards that is totally wrong they meet the requirements, back in 2000  Country Coach was having front end problems and they recalled those on their own cost Country Coach big bucks and DOT did not ask for the recall in the same time frame DOT made Prevost issue a recall on their buses 1996 to 2000 don't knock the RV industry to bad about safety not to say they won't push the limit but so does you bus converters like Marathon and Featherlite did.
My dear friend Karl Blades at Newell exceeds the US DOT guide lines he does his coaches to the German standards probably safer than any bus on the road



good luck
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2010, 12:16:41 PM »

Hi Clifford, I don't think the issue is whether they meet the DOT standards when new.  I have some questions on the overloaded front ends.  If those coaches crossed the scales and the inspectors saw the tire ratings (on those coaches that have not been updated) I think they could be in trouble.

What I think we are saying is: would the older buses pass the annual DOT inspection per 396.17?  I suspect most would not.

Skip, I had seen the inspection procedure "North American Standard Inspection Procedure" (pages 104 and 105) in the document you gave the link for on one of the DOT pages.  Funny thing was that their "official" link went to a very poor quality PDF of the same two pages. 

I am concerned that those two pages are, at best, a check sheet.  There is no reference to checking steering wheel free play and steering component wear.  I know that those are part of the procedure.

I did find an interesting inspection process for school buses that is much more detailed:  http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/statepatrol/docs/inspection.pdf

Again, please do not interpret all of this as some sort of rant on safety.  What I am trying to do is get an inspection procedure that would approximate the DOT  inspection and then strongly suggest that folks check their bus to see how it complies.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2010, 12:33:07 PM »

Jim, I understand what you are saying but some believe that the MH's made don't meet any DOT standards and buses are so much safer, that maybe so in the lower end models but I have saw Newells and Foretravels in accidents before they came out a lot better than some buses I saw in accidents


good luck
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bevans6
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2010, 12:35:01 PM »

I have a different take on it.  I think that our buses, when new, and RV's when new, have to comply fully with the DOT regulations then in force, under the FMVSS regulations and others.  I also think that our vehicles, and for that matter all vehicles, have to comply with the DOT regulations that apply to them any time they are on the road.  Your vehicle should basically comply at all times, under all circumstances.  Obviously sometimes it doesn't, a bulb burns out or whatever, and you get it repaired.  But - I honestly think that a bus conversion should be able to pass an annual inspection or a daily inspection or whatever, all of the time.  If you note in the regulations 396.23 on the link I posted, an annual inspection can be replaced by a roadside State inspection in many cases, and all vehicles are subject to roadside inspections (I presume they are, anyway, I don't think a State is going to say it's not allowed to do random roadside checks of vehicles).

I think the difference is just that we are not required to do the inspections, not that our buses don't have to be able to pass the inspections.  I think that the vast majority of our buses from this board could pass an annual inspection.  Maybe after a weekend or two of work, but they should be able to pass!  It's not that big of a deal, I get annual inspections done on my truck and trailer, it's basically the same inspection as you would have to pass to get it licensed in the first place.  Or can you guys get a used vehicle licensed without a state inspection?

Brian

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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2010, 12:42:25 PM »

Brian, I think the inspection for a purchased car varies from state to state.  It used to be in CO they did a first level safety inspection when you bought a car or when you got your emission test done.  They have not done that for several years.  No safety inspection for non commercial vehicles and it kind of shows in terms of headlights and tail lights that don't work. 

I think for the most part, we are preaching to the choir.  Most of the folks on this board are probably pretty good about making sure that their buses are safe.  My only hope is that this and the other threads will catch the newer folks and persuade them to do (or have done) a safety inspection.


Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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