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Author Topic: Question about a 3 way Refrigerator  (Read 4593 times)
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« on: September 05, 2010, 06:30:43 AM »

I've got a big nice 3 way RV refrigerator with oak panel doors that match my cabinets that I was thinking about installing in the MC-9. I had intended on just using a standard 110V apartment size refrigerator until I got this one. My question is, If I use the 3 way refrigerator, can I hook up only the 110V part of the 3 way and leave the 12v and LP unhooked? I only plan on using the refrigerator under generator power or shore power and don't really want to cut any extra gas vent holes in the bus.
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 06:40:05 AM »

you can run your 3 way on electric only, but u need to hook up 12v to power  the 3 way control panel. good luck, ron
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 07:07:25 AM »

RV refrigerators require an air vents for proper (and effecient) operatoin, no matter which source of power you use. They need a vent in the side of the coach nesar the bottom of the refrigerator for air intake and a vent in the roof for the hot air to exhaust. This "chimney effect" is what removes the heat and allows th refrigerator to cool.  Jack
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 07:19:56 AM »

RV refrigerators require an air vents for proper (and effecient) operatoin, no matter which source of power you use. They need a vent in the side of the coach nesar the bottom of the refrigerator for air intake and a vent in the roof for the hot air to exhaust. This "chimney effect" is what removes the heat and allows th refrigerator to cool.  Jack

Does the 110V side of the RV refrigerate produce a lot more heat than a standard household refrigerator??? I was wondering if the refrigerator could be vented inside the bus as opposed to the outside. The enclosement that the refrigerator sits in could have a simple vent grill installed in the bottom and another vent at the top to allow air to move throughout behind it. I just wouldn't want to dump an excessive amount of heat back into the bus.
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 10:24:52 AM »

I know next to nothing about RV fridges but...as far as I'm concerned residential fridges are often installed without enough venting/space for air to flow.  Since a bus is so small, and you will be using AC etc...it would be pretty counter productive not to allow for the heat of the  fridge to vent outside. 
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 12:05:20 PM »

Yes, an RV frig produces a lot more heat than a household frig.  They work on different technologies.  The household frig uses a compressor.  The RV frig uses what is called "absorption" to cool.  It uses heat instead of a compression cycle.  It is equivalent to running an electric heater.  It must be vented to the outside.  This is also for safety since it uses ammonia gas which you would want to vent outside also if it leaked.
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 12:14:50 PM »

i was going to say it's about the equivalent of a 350 watt space heater, since they use around 3 amps at 120 VAC.  Not that much, but some.  I think the venting of the ammonia gas in a failure is a very real reason to have the fridge installed with the required sealed vents top and bottom.  If you don't want the vents, then I would advise against having the RV type fridge.  Not totally kosher, but my bottom vent is into a luggage bay which is itself vented to outside, so I did not cut a hole in the side of the bus.  PITA for regular maintenance, though.

Brian
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 03:27:30 PM »

I just pulled the Hot Water Heater out of the 1998 Gulf Stream donor RV figuring it was just a propane water heater. After unhooking everything and pulling it out, I found out it is also a 3 way unit too. I didn't even know you could heat water with 12 volts. I'm happy though that it will run off shore power besides only LP Gas.
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 04:49:37 AM »

The 12 volt on the water heater is probably to power the "brain" and the ignitor for the LP.  Jack
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 06:33:23 AM »

You can run the RV fridge on 120 with no problem, 12 volt is for the controls. You do need to vent it like others have suggested though. If you have the manual it will tell you what you need to do. They do produce lots of heat and in order for it to work properly/safely they need to be vented.

We had a Norcold and ran it on 120 volt, for about one year. It started to leak ammonia so we pulled it out and installed an apartment size Whirlpool. I like it much better as we are always hooked up to a pole. The cost of the fridge was cheaper than the cost of a new cooling/heating unit for the Norcold.

I installed it in the same place so the fridge has breathing room.

It all depends on how you use your coach, and if you want to punch holes in the side and roof.

Paul
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 03:21:39 PM »

An RV frige cools by boiling an ammonia mixture, it actually has a boiler.

When you use AC it uses heating coils, this heat needs to vent and it can vent inside as long as there is no ammonia leak.

When you use LP it also vents carbon monoxide, which, of course is a killer.

DC only works for a short time in moderate weather, it is not good. As already posted, DC is necessary to operate frige panels/controls.

The clearance specs between frige coils and vent  (I think it is called a chimney, for good reason) walls are critical for proper operation. So you need the installation manual and need to follow it closely. Most are available online.
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 07:11:22 PM »

A lot of the older 3-way units didn't require 12V control voltage.   No matter, as everyone has indicated, the answer to your question is yes.     
If it requires 12V control voltage, the DC "cool" circuits should be interlocked (or disconnected) so that they cannot operate unless the ignition is 'ON'...a "DC" fridge on a 3 way system is a dead cranking battery waiting to happen.  Any time the AC goes out, the fridge will try to switch over to 12V.  That ain't good...unless the engine is running. 

JR

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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 07:20:09 PM »

Our frig in automatic mode defaults to AC.  If there is no AC, it goes to LPG, and if there ain't none of that it goes to DC.  However, if you choose the mode--say put it in AC, it will not automatically switch fuels.  It will complain instead.  Hence, to avoid the problem JR referred to, don't use the auto mode unless you know you want it.
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 07:53:29 PM »

I run my Norcold on "Auto" when it is on AC, that is the only way it will run on AC. If AC fails it switches to Gas.

It does have a "Gas" position and a "DC" position, but not an "AC" position.

I don't think it will ever revert to DC under any conditions, but it may. It never has.
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 09:24:54 PM »

I have the Dometic Sidewise and I installed it last year. The vents in the side and roof were already there so I only had to place the fridge according to specs, this said you must understand that an RV fridge MUST be vented outside, if not you run the risk of poisonous ammonia gas being (if ever a leak should occur) vented into you living space which is an immediate death sentence if the volume is sufficient as the ammonia both blinds you AND closes your wind pipe. I have worked deck hand onboard ship storing supplies etc into the huge ammonia deep freezers and had leaks from time to time. Ammonia when intermixed in your breathing space is almost always fatal and very rarely not. you take a huge risk not venting an RV fridge on manufacture specs.
You can put a solar run roof vent W/ fan that will not tax your batteries at all an it cost around $100 it also turns on by temp of the fridge's rear fins. For the side vent you should use the standard model that passes RV safety code.

You want to really insulate that box the fridge sits in, real well, especially the wall of the bus. if you don't your fridge will always have cooling and regulating problems. When you are done you want a completely air tight and super insulated encasement separating the house from the box surrounding the fridge, the spray foam in the can works really well for sealing crevices and spaces regular insulation doesn't reach and is air tight.
Your "chimney should be as direct and unobstructed as you can make it.
and installing additional 2 temp controlled RV fridge exhaust fans mounted in the chimney and aimed to blow up to push air out the roof vent is also a good idea as these buses tend to heat up in the sun.

been there done that have the T-Shirt.
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2010, 09:32:37 PM »

One more thing , follow the manufactures installation specs regarding clearance of side and back etc. these fridges generate considerable heat in its processes, regardless of weather LP or elect is used the heat up the stove pipe in the rear of the fridge gets pretty hot over time of operation and needs to be free of materials and debris.
But once properly installed they run really dependable.
I would suggest hooking LP to it any way as a back up if ever you change your mind cause once installed it can be more difficult to add the piping later on.
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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 08:10:08 PM »

Installing an LP fridge is a lot of work because of the airtight cab.  However, I agree that the LP adds usefulness to the coach.   
If installing the LP, I'd highly recommend locating a copy of the manufacturers installation guide. 
Any insulation installed in the cabinet should be fireproof if LP is connected.   The sides, top, and bottom are important.  The rear (exterior wall) not so much.  Ideal is to install curb-side and when camping, the awning will shade the wall.   
Might be a good idea to create some sort of 'disclaimer' if the 3-way is installed sans LP.  The next owner may not have a clue that the cab isn't "LP-ready" as he plumbs LP in.
RV roof top and side vents are readily available and are cheap.   The roof top vent is easily mounted on an MCI roof curve...but, if you do this, remember where the stringers in the roof and wall are located.  You'll have to cut thru the wall chair rail longitude, but the location (with LP, should you decide to accept that project) on the roof is dictated by avoiding any rivet lines.  The fridge should be centered on the vents.   Even if you don't use LP, you might wish to locate the fridge for such.   The area between the roof and ceiling will have to be formed and sealed also.  It ain't rocket science, but....
IF you plan to use AC only to power the unit, I'd sell that RV puppy and find a similar sized, efficient, small AC fridge and use that.  It'll be much more efficient (colder, more reliable, much faster cooldown).   Run it on an inverter when travelling.   
JR

 
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 09:49:56 AM »

In ref to insulating the WHOLE inside area Including the inner side of the bus wall, These metal rigs conduct the heat remarkably well. That said, using a good thick alum sided insul board and alum tape and cutting and forming the board to fit is an added effort you will not regret but not doing so or some other idea that keeps that heat out while traveling is a decision you will regret.
I installed mine but didn't put in any insulation to the bus skin and now will have to pull the fridge out and do it right, as on hot days or just direct sunlight on the roof will cost me 5 -8 degrees in the fridge itself. and these RV fridges are not rapid responders to heat. During the hotter days of summer I usually have to buy 10 -15 lbs of dry ice to put in the freezer to lower the temp against the heat transferring thru the metal skin which causes the ammonia not to function as efficiently.
So A big job ahead for want of not doing it right the first time.
If only I had thought it would make such a difference at the time I installed it.
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2010, 10:31:33 AM »

Im not sure why you dont want to cut a hole in the roof and I dont know much of anything about how an MCI is structured..... but you might do what I am thinking on doing. I am going to have a side isle, with the refer turned facing the front of the coach and in the middle of the coach. I am going to have a clothes closet or pantry right behind the refer. I like venting from below and then cut a hole in the roof for the chimney. Above the hole I will put a solar panel which will do double duty as a rain cap. I also want to vent my tanks through this chimney. I think it will look a lot better that way and be safe........ am I wrong?
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2010, 10:57:56 AM »

Solar panels are adversely effected by heat in that their electrical generation deteriorates with heat beyond tolerance levels. I was told this by a fellow who installed an array of them on his home.
So I don't know first hand but mention it as a question you might like to inquire into given the installation intent you outline.

This also raises concerns in my mind about the aerodynamics of this configuration regarding exceeding tolerance levels upon the panel mounts and anchors at 60 mph with wind resistance forces anywheres up to 100 mph or more if facing the head winds of a coming storm etc. Your panel could very well take flight taking part of your roof with it.
I suppose a wind break might do it for ya tho ?
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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2010, 11:13:30 AM »

Yaeh, I know about the heat...... I live in the HOT desert too, near Death Valley and am delaying a little on the panels because of the heat thing. I am thinking and hoping the technology gets better by the time I am ready ($$$) to do it. As for the wind factor...... there are lots of sticks and staples (and buses too) that use them, so maybe I am not following you?
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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2010, 11:33:29 AM »

If you intend to stay in the death valley area you might desire to do some research on the alternative research into using the suns heat rather than the light as a means of generation elect. there is current significant progress into this developing technology.

if you mount a solar panel over a vent on your roof that would place your panel a good 6 inches off the surface of the roof. As you travel down the road at say 60 mph you are generating a wind lifting force upon that panel as air travels over and more importantly under the panel. If you are driving into a brewing storm and with wind gusts against your forward motion of only 30 mph your solar panel would be hit with wind forces of approx 90 mph, this is tornado area as far as it comes to wind forces against your panel.

if your traveling only 50 mph but a wind gust of 50 mph hits you then you are still at risk of losing that panel, because it is mounted above the roofs surface it will catch that wind under it's belly and will if sufficient wind force, tear that panel off it's mountings or just rip the metal roof where it is fastened.

I was thinking a V- shaped wind break just before the panel might divert the wind up and around the panel and thus prevent the wind from getting under it with any real force.

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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2010, 11:50:05 AM »

If you are talking about producing steam by heating water and using the steam to turn wind turbines...... Yes I am familiar with the technology. My brother is a CEO type with the largest producer of this in the world in the Mojave Desert. But it doesnt seem very practical to me to use with a motorhome because of the large amount of water that would have to be heated on the roof of the rv........ I did consider putting a row of small turbines up on the roof to go from side to side with a fine mesh netting around them in case one breaks from the force of driving down the road. However, the extra drag created by doing this did not seem to me that it was something viable also the noise, I think, would be awful...... I had not considered a wind break for the solar panels and think that is a reasonable suggestion but I wonder if others have had their panels blow off, I havent heard of that happening but it does seem plausible!
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2010, 11:59:49 AM »

I think what he is saying is that if the solar panel is attached down low on the bus roof then it becomes part of the bus with little to no air going under it....but if you attache it 6 or 8 inches up in the air to cover the air vent as described, then it is still part of the bus but will act sort of like an airplane wing with the air flow going under it and trying to lift it from the bus. A windbreak or air dam in front of the solar panel would help move the air flow up and over the panel as opposed to under it.
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2010, 12:04:34 PM »

You must remember that the volume of air is just as or more important as it's speed in determining it's ability to exert sufficient force to cause failure of your panel mounts. and most panels are mounted very close to the roof's surface whereas your panel would be 4 or 5 times higher thus the volume of air is far greater, that volume increase times the same air speed experienced by other installations out there is the factor that changes the equation hence the wind breaker suggestion.

No I am not referring to the old tech of steam but a new technological breakthrough that looks like a satellite dish and uses the changes on a molecular level regarding the variances experienced between hot and cold temps as effected upon atoms.

it apparently generates a great deal more elect than other technologies and is in production out of the Tri-cities WA for Commercial use and research.
It is still in the research stage at this time but just saw a multi million dollar investment of govt funds last year so should be some substantial progress in the next 5 years, or so I think anyway.
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 12:06:13 PM »

Okay, this is where I am lost. Why would the cap have to be 6-8" on top of the roof? Why can the end of the chimney not be flush with the roof or at most just an inch or so above the roof?
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 12:11:01 PM »

I think what he is saying is that if the solar panel is attached down low on the bus roof then it becomes part of the bus with little to no air going under it....but if you attache it 6 or 8 inches up in the air to cover the air vent as described, then it is still part of the bus but will act sort of like an airplane wing with the air flow going under it and trying to lift it from the bus. A windbreak or air dam in front of the solar panel would help move the air flow up and over the panel as opposed to under it.

YES!! EXACTLY, Thank You
(why didn't I say that in the first place.)
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 12:11:58 PM »

Quote
No I am not referring to the old tech of steam but a new technological breakthrough that looks like a satellite dish and uses the changes on a molecular level regarding the variances experienced between hot and cold temps as effected upon atoms.

I havent heard of this.... sounds interesting!!
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 12:20:28 PM »

Ok Ok /
I have your picture.

you would need to make your own vent and put maybe 2 little RV Fridge temp controlled fans to exhaust the hot air but maybe this is doable.

I haven't thought of this picture sufficiently to foresee any complications other than the need to make your own vent with screening to keep the varmints out and sufficient means to move the exhaust air.

maybe a scoop air duck close to the surface ?

You couldn't just have a flush hole as water would be a problem.
I don't know..
some thought time is in order so will have to get back to you.
interesting idea.
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 12:50:21 PM »

Here is a solar solution that is currently in production and is called a laminate.
It is like a sheet of plastic that molds to the shape of your roof

I believe the watts generation are not as efficient as the panels but am not sure on that.
I called the company to speak to the engineers but they were not available at the time and never followed up on it.
But you might find it appealing to your purposes.

I thought I had saved the link to the other solar tech I mentioned earlier but can't seem to locate it at the moment, I'll keep looking tho.
Best.
Eli.
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2010, 12:55:09 PM »

Thank you! Yes I am familiar with the paper thin panels that are flexible and would be real nice on a curvaceous bus like an RTS, I can even see our decals being done with solar panels like this one day! But yes, from what I have read they are not as efficient as the regular hard ones....... Our technology is getting there, maybe by the time I have $$ or hit the lotto it will be there  Wink
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2010, 01:25:11 PM »

Sounds like a sound retirement plan you have there.
LOL
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