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Author Topic: VS2-6  (Read 2600 times)
dwcjwerfner
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« on: September 21, 2010, 09:45:53 PM »

Hi All
It is my first post and I will get my bus posted up into the Post your bus section shortly.
It is a bit of a different machine. The nameplate says it is a 1986 Concorde which of course in the bus world I have found out over the years means nothing. What it is really is a ~1981 GMC Transit bus from the floor down with ~1986 Prevost front and side glass (3 windows each side), Prevost front rear caps and Prevost lights and front "grill". It has always been a motorhome and from what I can tell it only has 70000 miles on it.
Good site you have going here. I was perusing it last week trying to figure out how to get my VS2-6 to shift into what I thought was 3rd but now gather is really my direct drive at a higher rpm.
Well I ran out of time and went on my trip from Ontario, Canada to Loudon, New Hampshire to see the race. That is when I had wished I had found your site a bit earlier and had more research under my belt.
60 miles outside of Loudon I stopped for fuel and when I pulled back on I-89 I lost "3rd" gear and that did not work well with Interstate speeds and all the hills in that part of the country. Nevertheless to say I got into some serious overheating problems and that 60 miles ended up taking me 3 hours between pulling over to let the bus cool down and trying to figure out what the heck was going on as because I was in such huge hills it took me awhile to figure out that from what I now gather from reading on here that the Direct Drive was not engaging as I could not get enough speed going to tell that I was just overrevving due to not upshifting.
Well once you get to Nascar rough camping you can't really leave until the end of the weekend so I crossed my fingers and hoped that when I started up cold everything would be ok. Well it was not and I limped home almost 450 miles going secondary routes including through the mountains at Killington VA lol. My GPS when I got home said I had moving average of about 30 MPH. After the 13.5 hours it took to get home I believe it.
Anyway here is the technical part:
Prior to my problem the bus which has a 6V71 and a VS2-6 would shift consistently from 1st to 2nd very, very firmly (shake the whole bus, unsettle anybody that might be standing) at ~27mph. Then it would shift into what I thought was 3rd (but is Direct Drive right??) at ~37mph nicely. I was looking to change the shift as it would never shift down until 31-32 and on a big hill by the time it would shift it would then it had lost enough speed it would usually just end up in 1st.
Now what it is doing is accelerating fine from bottom end but the shift into 2nd is so imperceptible unless you are really paying attention you don't notice it and actually sometimes I think it might be staying in 1st as on a slight grade it won't climb over 33-34mph. If and only if it is a downgrade can I then coax it up to 35-40mph and a big downgrade will actually let me get up to over 50mph where I can feel the engine governor kick in at 51-52mph. So as you can imagine I was in neutral alot on those VA hills and my brakes got a good workout.
Here is a something that might be important. I was reading a post from last year where Tradecities was having similar issues https://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=11594.0 but that was with a VH and I don't see 2 solenoids on my VS. ALSO very important when I got the bus all the wires except one were disconnected from the solenoid (which I believe is the neutral solenoid). It did not seem right to me but it always worked and nobody around here knows those trannys so I left it alone.
Paso One do you have any manuals for the VS2-6 or does anybody else?
So once I get diagrams I am going to start with getting my wires hooked up correctly and look at the governor (which I so badly wanted to take apart on the road as although I didn't no for sure it was a governor I was guessing it was but .....not a good idea on the road without a manual).
Does anybody else have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance
Dwayne
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cody
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2010, 05:30:30 AM »

Welcome to the zoo, what part of ontario?
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dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2010, 06:16:34 AM »

Renfrew, Ontario about 1 hour north of Ottawa

dj
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TomC
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2010, 06:36:09 AM »

I can't give you the reason your trans is acting up.  I can give advice as to getting rid of the VS2-6 and installing a V730.  Reasons- VS2-6 is a 2 spd transmission with an overdrive gear on the input shaft.  You only have torque converter lockup in 2nd (direct) and 3rd (overdrive).  When in first, you're always in torque converter creating tremendous amounts of heat for the radiator to get rid of.  You also don't have any control of gears (F-N-R), and that transmission has been out of production so long, parts are getting hard to get.
The V730 is basically a HT740 without 1st gear with the angled bevel gear.  The V730 shifts 1C-2C-2L-3L. so it actually feels like 4spd.  Most have a normal shifter (R-N-3-2-1) where you can hold a gear for climbing a hill.  You can get 1st gear torque converter lockup by pulling the gear shift to 1st and pulling up about an inch on the accelerator-then you can climb a long hill (at around 30mph) in torque converter lockup without all the heat build up.  Lots of V730's still in service, and parts are still being made for them.
If you're going to keep your bus for a while, don't even fool with the out dated VS2-6 and install the V730.  You'll be a whole bunch more satisfied with its' performance.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Paso One
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2010, 06:55:32 AM »

Welcome Dwayne

I have a VH9 manual but not the Vs2-6 manual

I have both transmissions on the shop floor if you need any exterior pictures.

It sounds like you have the VH-9 transmission  Do you know for sure it is the VS??

P
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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
6V71  V730 4:10
dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2010, 09:04:56 AM »

I can't give you the reason your trans is acting up.  I can give advice as to getting rid of the VS2-6 and installing a V730.  Reasons- VS2-6 is a 2 spd transmission with an overdrive gear on the input shaft.  You only have torque converter lockup in 2nd (direct) and 3rd (overdrive).  When in first, you're always in torque converter creating tremendous amounts of heat for the radiator to get rid of.  You also don't have any control of gears (F-N-R), and that transmission has been out of production so long, parts are getting hard to get.
The V730 is basically a HT740 without 1st gear with the angled bevel gear.  The V730 shifts 1C-2C-2L-3L. so it actually feels like 4spd.  Most have a normal shifter (R-N-3-2-1) where you can hold a gear for climbing a hill.  You can get 1st gear torque converter lockup by pulling the gear shift to 1st and pulling up about an inch on the accelerator-then you can climb a long hill (at around 30mph) in torque converter lockup without all the heat build up.  Lots of V730's still in service, and parts are still being made for them.
If you're going to keep your bus for a while, don't even fool with the out dated VS2-6 and install the V730.  You'll be a whole bunch more satisfied with its' performance.  Good Luck, TomC

Hey Tom
Thanks for the advice. One of the problems is I need my bus this weekend for an event I am going to so I am trying figure out what is going wrong and again the whole bus only has 70000 miles on it so the VS2-6 had been serving well and if I could figure out how to get it working again at least for now I could start looking for a 730. Though your description of how the 2 tranny's work has been very helpful. I am deducing from that that it is that my torque converter is not locking up. So if I could find a manual I could probably fix it, at least for now. So you are saying that the V730 is actually still cable shifted? And my throttle is run my cable and not by wire, they work with that fine?

Thanks
Dwayne
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dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2010, 09:12:45 AM »

Welcome Dwayne

I have a VH9 manual but not the Vs2-6 manual

I have both transmissions on the shop floor if you need any exterior pictures.

It sounds like you have the VH-9 transmission  Do you know for sure it is the VS??

P

Yep, it still has the tag on it and says Model: VS2-6.
I will take pictures at lunch and post up my mess.
Oh I also forgot to mention that it is leaking enough through the output shaft seal, but I attributed part of that to the fact that the tranny is so hot, and now that I understand that it is running without TC lockup that makes sense. Would it also make sense that my top governed is only 52mph without a locked up TC? BTW in all the abuse the tranny has taken the oil is still fairly red and does not smell burnt at all. Ok this may seem like a dumb question this late in the game but I can never seem to get a good reading when the bus is warmed up and in neutral and running it alwasy seems to be misted lightly most of the way up the stick, it says nothing at all on the stick whether the marks are for hot or cold or whether to check it when it is running and in neutral or shut off. Anybody?

Dwayne

Thanks
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Paso One
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2010, 10:06:02 AM »

Well you maybe hit the nail on the head with the low fluid level as it will not make that final shift unless the oil is at the propoer level.

My only expierance with the VS2-8 tranny was driving Fishbowl Brians bus From Colorado to Saskatoon  2000 miles

It would cruise at 70 -75 MPH ( according to vehicle following )

It had a leaking hose that he warned me about and his comments as I remember them was that when the fluid starts to get low it starts shifting hard as you mentioned above.

Also it won't make the final lock up without enough oil.

He had 40 wt oil in it not tranny fluid, as it apparently was a Allison suggestion ( rumour Smiley )
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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
6V71  V730 4:10
Paso One
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2010, 10:13:28 AM »

Opps  Forgot to add  tranny was checked hot and running.  no mist area solid oil on stick to the mark.

The VH manual says check when hot and imediately after shutting off. not sure what is right the manual or real life words SmileySmiley
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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
6V71  V730 4:10
dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2010, 10:46:39 AM »

Thanks for that info Paso, does anybody else have any info on the oil that should be in there? I have always run Dexron II as that was what appeared to be in there when I got it.

Dwayne
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TomC
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2010, 04:06:29 PM »

The V730 is a mechanical transmission that will work off your throttle cable, or in my case I have an air throttle (which I love for the light pedal pressure) and then the throttle modulator works off the air pressure of the air throttle.  It has a cable shifter or you can also have an electric shifter that shifts the transmission electro-mechanically at the transmission.
The V731 is an AATEC (Allison Automatic Transmission Electronic Controls) that is designed to be used with electronically controlled engines.  These can be used with mechanical engines with the addition of a electronic pedal position senser on your throttle cable.
Highly recommend the air throttle.

Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »

Well here is the mess I am dealing with.



These are the wires just hanging with one hooked to my lone solenoid

Module with a sensor on it.

My governor with hydraulic lines running to it but no wires.



And I just had that engine farily clean but all the high revving and high temp let oil get out everywhere

dj
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dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2010, 04:22:02 PM »

Opps  Forgot to add  tranny was checked hot and running.  no mist area solid oil on stick to the mark.

The VH manual says check when hot and imediately after shutting off. not sure what is right the manual or real life words SmileySmiley

Well when I first had problems I was trying to get a reading on the side of the highway in the dark and since it was so vague I added 3 quarts trying to see a line, then when I check it hot but off later on it was at probably 2 quarts over doh.

dj
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dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 08:12:04 PM »

So from all your input and last years thread on the VH9 I decided to remove the governor which is purely hydraulic.
Here are those weights and there is a shim on the shaft.


2 things I noticed when removing it was that the line to the TC end of the trans was dry and the line from the other end was lose at the governor.


Inspecting the unit itself led me to the discovery of a broken plastic "drive" like a distributor has. I am figuring this is my problem.



While looking for possible used V730's I found this place http://www.capbusparts.com/piecean.html Does anybody have experience with them or no a place in the in the US or Canda I could get VS2-6 parts right away?

Thanks again.
Dwayne
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NoRivets
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2010, 05:27:16 AM »

These folks are a great help to busnuts.  Even though it looks like you've found the trouble, you might want to get some parts in the future. 

Try this
http://www.nimcobus.com/catalog/newlook_page1.shtml    Smiley


phil
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AZ
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towing a Jeep Wrangler.  99.9% completed (15th Yr)
RJ
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2010, 09:35:11 AM »

Dwayne -

Call Luke at US Coach in NJ, he'll have that little drive gear assembly on it's way to you as soon as he gets off the phone.

1-888-262-2434, between 9-5 Eastern.

The VS2-6 is actually a pretty rugged transmission, in some ways more so than the V-730.  But it does have it's quirks, and age is definitely creeping up on it.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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LUKE at US COACH
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2010, 10:10:26 AM »

Hi Dwayne & Folks:

The drive on your governor is usually made of Bakelite so that if it shatters it does not damage the transmission.

We have the drive and pin in stock and you can reach us toll free at: 1-888-262-2434.

I Hope this HELPS!!!

Happy & SAFE!!! Bussin' to All.

LUKE at US COACH
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dwcjwerfner
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2010, 05:52:24 AM »

Thanks everybody for their help, I really needed to get the bus going for this weekend so I had one of my customers who is a local machine shop build one out of Delran which is similar to Bakelite. It definitely was the "gear" as I took it for a drive last night and with the oil line tightened up it shifts so much smoother. I have always known there was a leak back under there but my loss of fluid was so little I just never paid it any heed. Apparently that is bad and I think I know why the gear did break as there was a bit of galling on the inside of the governer where the shaft runs through it and if that slowed down at all it would of course just snap the bakelite. My shop cleaned it all up and I am hoping I am good to go.
Also thank you to Luke for the quick response to the posting, do you have a website? I will be needing parts in the future and would like to give you some business.

Thanks
Dwayne
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