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Author Topic: Series 60 11.1 vs 12.7  (Read 7032 times)
Ericbsc
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« on: September 29, 2010, 02:09:45 PM »

  I have found a couple 11.1 ans 12.7 engines.The  11.1's are365 hp. Don't know the tourqe, but both have coolers etc. intact. I am a little concerned about the 12.7's. One looks to have taken a hard front hit on the truck with the cooled destroyed, and the other has a lot of burnt wires as it was a cab fire. Also the 11.1 is 35 % cheaper. I am going to mate with an allison 4060 in an 05 eagle.Any suggestions?
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TomC
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2010, 02:19:55 PM »

I believe the 11.1 liter can be bumped to 400hp and 1350lb/ft torque.  The only difference between the 11.1 and the 12.7 is the crankshaft and connecting rods (same pistons).  If you have to rebuild the 11.1, it isn't that much more to make a 12.7 out of it.  Then you can go to 500hp and 1650lb/ft torque (going to the 575hp and 1850lb/ft torque requires some expensive equipment changes).  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2010, 02:41:43 PM »

Eric, the 12.7 is the better of the 2 engines if you are going through the trouble go with the 12.7 the 11.1 hasn't been made since 1998 375 hp is about tops for 11.1  the 12.7 will get better fuel mileage.I never met a person with a 11.1 in bus that did not want to xchange it for a 12.7
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 03:05:51 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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Ericbsc
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2010, 06:12:56 PM »

I have searched on line and have not been able to locate any info. on the 11.1, just the 12.7, and 14.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2010, 06:25:40 PM »

I went with the 12.7 myself basic fact cubic inches equal torque..like the difference between a 8V71 and a 8v92 except in this case I'm going from a 5mpg 8v92 to hopefully over 8 mpg 12.7..more power better gas mileage ..this is what I have gleaned from research and talking to guys that are running them..
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2010, 06:45:24 PM »

The 11.1L hasn't been made in over a decade so there probably isn't much info out there.  I would suspect most truckers went with the 12.7L anyhow.

Just as Clifford said, I would rather have a 12.7L instead of the 11.1L for more power.  Saving 20 minutes in the mountains isn't worth replacing or upgrading my engine.  Even weighing 44,000 lbs including trailer I still had no issues with too steep of grades.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 06:50:50 PM »

Eric, if you are looking for the HP and torque rating and rpms www.dwclutch.com has the rating on all Detroit engines even the 2 strokes

good luck
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buswarrior
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2010, 06:53:49 PM »

For that link, click the tab marked "Proper Clutch Selection, the engine families are at the bottom of that page.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2010, 06:56:39 PM »

What transmission have you used. With the eagle length is important. The 4050 I have can be programed  as a 4 speed with double overdrive to compensate for the 3:73 rear. Way I have it figured if I go out west to flat ground and a 30 mi. straight I should top out at about 140mph in 6th gear!!! Jus kiddin!
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robertglines1
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2010, 07:04:20 PM »

you need to talk to Jim (RV safety man) he has a Eagle with a 60 series and a Eaton 10sp Autoshift..Can tell you the in and out's.I've learned a lot from his experience...Bob
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Ed Brenner
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2010, 07:07:00 PM »

Eric,

When you pull that old 71 and that mt654cr trans out remember I'll haul the scrap away !!! Grin Grin
Be nice to have a spare trans.
Ed
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Ed Brenner
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2010, 07:11:29 PM »

Went to the web site. I have the info. off the engine tags. The 11.1 is a 365 hp engine with 1350 ft. lbs. The 12.7 is 430-470 with 1450 ftlbs. Not a lot of difference. The 12.7 truck has taken a hard frontal and a cab fire. The 11.1 is in good cond with rad. and cooler intact. I don't knoe the mileage on either but the 11.1 is very clean. I called the local dd shop and they were as much help as usual!!! We can get a little info. off the computer but not enough to help. Probably been changed anyway. Wish I had a job where I could treat people like SH@#, take a 2 hr. lunch, blow people off and still charhe $ 150.00 an hour. A doctor trains for over 8 years and makes less!!!! NOW I FEEL BETTER LOL!
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2010, 07:14:07 PM »

Also the 12.7 hp rating is at 2100 rpm, and the 11.1 at 1800. Don't know if that matters? Ed Come on up and handle this swap and it could be christmas!! LOL
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luvrbus
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2010, 07:26:09 PM »

I can do as good or better than a 11.1 with a 400 hp 8v92 and get the same fuel mileage,Bob we have tons of Eagles in the club with 60 series some even have the 14L all different types of transmissions 740's to 12 speeds the length is not the problem it is the gearing on the old bird.You can stick anything in a Eagle I know of one that has a Deutsch V8 it will pass anything except a fuel stop he gets around 4 mpg with a good tailwind  

good luck
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2010, 06:45:52 PM »

The 4060 tranny should fix the rear 3:73 issue. It is a 4 speed with double overdrive, or 5 speed with single overdrive. According to the allison tech I spoke to the overdrive ratio is programable?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 07:24:03 PM »

Eric, maybe you should call a different tech you cannot reprogram the ratio of a 4060 it is 0.74:1 in 5th and 0.64:I he can lock the OD's in or out and change the shift patterns but not change the ratio.
That transmission is design to work with a 4:30 to a 4:56 rear gear to use 6th gear some people use a RV dealer to unlock 6th but a Allison dealer usually won't do it without the proper gearing and the best you can do on a Eagle with the drop box is a 4.10:1 and they are hard to fine,that is what Eagle used with the B500, series 60 and with 6th locked out.


good luck
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Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2010, 05:38:07 AM »

All 12.7 Series 60 are not the same. There are several models MK, GK, PK, BK and so on. Most Detroit Techs tell me that the BK is the most desirable. It started around 2000 and it is a DDEC IV. It has jets that spray oil under the pistons providing additional cooling, plus the pistons and rods are the conventional style  where the wrist pin goes through the rod instead of bolting to it. The BK can be turned up to 500HP with no durability problem. Some of the other models may not hold up as well at higher HP settings. The following link does a good job explaining the differences.       http://www.ipdparts.com/enews/english/assets/IPDTB0020_DD60_Info.pdf

Ken
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luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2010, 05:52:31 AM »

The PK is the premium engine in the series 60 line the G,T,M and so on are the standard series engines, fwiw T is a DDEC I,U is a DDEC II,K is a DDEC III or IV and V is a DDEC V.The P would be my choice of the 60 series fwiw  


good luck
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 07:00:41 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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TomC
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 08:50:27 AM »

All 12.7 liter Series 60's were capable of putting out 430hp and 1450lb/ft torque.  When comparing to the 8V-71 at 300hp and 800lb/ft torque, building the Series 60 to a higher horsepower is just not necessary.  Granted with the right components, the 12.7 can produce 575hp and 1850lb/ft torque-but at a high cost.  Personally, I don't see the need for more than 430hp and 1450lb/ft torque-besides, if you have the horses, you have to feed them.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2010, 06:08:18 PM »

Tom,

Do you know if the S60 ever came in an RV / Firetruck trim? 430hp seems like a really conservative (million mile) rating, considering that's what an ISL would make (though not the torque of course).

What about a Pittsburgh power box or a similar programmer? In an RV bus I feel 250,000 miles of service is plenty. My little 6V71 with N70 injectors and 2500 rpm probably can't make half of that.
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TomC
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2010, 01:33:08 AM »

I believe the highest rating that was used on the 12.7 liter was 500hp and 1650lb/ft torque.  When the 14 liter was brought out, 515hp and 1650lb/ft torque was the highest rating. Main reason the 14 liter was brought out was to counteract the natural horsepower derating effect that exhaust gas recirculation does-in other words, the engine had to be increased from 12.7 to 14.0 liter to maintain the same power output. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2010, 08:03:47 AM »

We have a couple of Eagles in the club that have the 12.7 series 60 set on 625 hp Cole Davenport uses a off road ECM and he can set his HP from 500 to 625 without going through Detroit pretty neat set up he has,but when you work for Detroit for 40 years like Cole you know how to get outside the box lol, when his is set on 625 hp he has 2050 lbs of torque that is bunch

good luck
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TomC
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2010, 08:18:07 AM »

Luvrbus- now that sounds more like the kind of power that would make an engine swap to the huge (physical size) Series 60 worth it.  Besides, we don't need a 1 million mile engine.  Set at 625hp and 2050lb/ft torque it should last (depending on driving) around 6-700,000 miles.  Detroit and other engine manufacturers figure the engine life based on how much fuel the engine has burned, not total miles.  So my estimate is based on a 470hp getting 1 million miles in comparison.  The only thing would be cooling.

Course, you could get a 14 liter marine version that puts out 825hp! Could run 2 or 3 radiators.... Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2010, 01:42:37 PM »

I would also do an EGR delete on any modern 4 stroke I own. It's one of the dumbest methods of combating emissions, chokes up the entire engine with soot.

Don't know about the S60, but on ISXs, truckers typically see a whole 1mpg gain (from 6 to 7 mpg) with an EGR delete, which would also make regens happen a lot less frequent on a post-07 engine.

Even with no EGR and DPF, modern engine are probably many times cleaner than our old detroits.
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2010, 05:10:47 PM »

So are you saying that the 60 with the 4060 will not work with my 3:73? I thought that would be a good setup?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2010, 05:34:19 PM »

Eric, it is a good setup but 6th gear is not going to do you any good and 5th won't be used that much,check with the guys in club Ben is the only one I know there using the 4060 behind his series 60.
I don't know what Byron is using with his series 60 probably a 4 speed as he runs 3:36 gears and the Eagles with the ISM Cummins are running the 740.
Tim runs a 754 behind his series 60 plenty of 60 series in club along with Cummins and Cat's make a few calls,Jim used the auto shift 10 speed to get his gearing right.
With out the proper gear to rpm ratio your fuel mileage is going to suck


good luck
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 05:44:17 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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TomC
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2010, 09:27:26 PM »

Eric- the 4060 with the Series 60 and 3.73's will be a great combo.  In 4th gear direct your engine speed would be 1809 @ 60; 1959 @ 65 and 2110 @ 70 (top speed in 4th).  In fifth which is a .74 over drive, your engine speed would be 1450 @ 65; 1561 @ 70; 1673 @ 75; 1784 @ 80.  If you could get into sixth which is a .64 overdrive, your engine speed would be 1447 @ 75; 1543 @ 80; 1640 @ 85; 1736 @ 90; 1833 @ 95; 1929 @ 100; 2122 @ 110.  So you see that's a bit fast.

The correct gear to obtain 1600 rpm @ 75mph in sixth will put you at 4.11's.  The exact would be 1595 @ 75.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2010, 06:12:57 AM »

Eric, TomC numbers are good but on the 4060 overdrive will only occur when the output shaft is speed is  greater than the turbine speed shaft and it won't happen with 3:73 gears under normal speeds.
If you don't have a manual for the WT Transmission I suggest you get one or Pm me with your address and you can use mine just return it to me the manual will take the guess work out for you the WT transmissions are very complex animals.
I did find out for you most of the guys using the WT changed to 3:36 gears and use the B500 or 4060 as a 4 speed if you go that route just keep your 740 it is a better transmission, one has 4:10 gears and uses 5th


good luck
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 06:33:57 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Ericbsc
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »

Problem is that the p.o. had a rebuilt 8-71n, a 654 allison, and p.s. put on the bus. I ghanged the steering to the tas 65 because it wandered. I found out then that I had a 2100 psi. pump with a 1400 psi. box. Judging from that  and the tranny they chose, I don't think they were the sharpest tacks in tha pack!!LOL. Long and short of it is that I will need a tranny anyway.
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TomC
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2010, 08:28:59 AM »

Eric- the MT654 is a 600 series 5 spd that Allison equipped with a larger torque converter to take up to (if I remember correctly) 930lb/ft of engine torque.  It is one of the best 600 series transmissions made.  Unless you're having problems with it, I would just run with it.
The Sheppard steering gear needs to have over 2000psi to operate properly.  So your PO's weren't as dumb as you think.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2010, 09:39:43 AM »

The tranny and engine are in exellent condition, and I will probably look to sell them after the swap. The HF64 is a ross box. It is rated for a 1400psi. pump max. They had put a 2100 psi. pump on the engine. The pump they used was speced for the 15 eagle with the TAS65 box, also a ross. I replaced the hf with a tas, and what a difference!!! The 2100 psi pump was causing the hf box to overreact in addition to the unit not being centered. I went from pucker up, and turn quickly at 55 mph, to have a glass of tea, and drive with one hand at 70 mph!! I am going to look at another 60 today, low mileage(ARENT THEY ALL!!! LOL)
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« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2010, 11:31:26 AM »

I had a long conversation with the tech guy at allison today. The transmission that I am looking at is a 4000mhp. He said it is basicly the same family as the b500. The mh stands for motorhome, and the p for aux. pto provision. I was baffeled by the pto?? He said some mfgr's actually use the pto for hyd fan drives etc. It is rated to the tourqe of a 60 series. I asked about the overdrives. He said that tranny is a.741 in 5th, and .641 on 6th. He said there are several ways to configure the shift, load percentage, throttle percentage, engine rpm mph, etc. He also said that I  would have to have such done by a dealer. Got to be another way? TRan. cap. is 48 qts.!!! Sounds like the overdrives could be configured, but can I afford the cost!! LOL
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TomC
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« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2010, 01:50:39 PM »

HD4060, 4000HS, B500 are all the same transmission.  The B500 will have a shallow pan for better ground clearance.  The programming of weather or not the transmission will be a 4, 5, or 6 speed is a programming issue.  Quite frankly-I'd just leave it a 6 spd-the transmission is not going to go into gear unless the correct speed is met-so what's the difference? Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2010, 07:08:34 PM »

That is what the tech guy leaned toward also. That is fine, looking at Tomc's numbers it should be fine. I got a price today from DD for the needed items to connect theengine and tranny since the engine is in a st drive truck. Came to $ 991.00 with a 60 series shop manal. The manual is $ 117.00 alone. Seems a little high. Is there another source for flex plate, adapters etc.
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« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2010, 09:07:37 AM »

I've got a few new parts left from when I was installing one; accumulator, new shift pad, some sort of logic box, and maybe a few more things it you're interested.  PM me at barnstormer 36 at gmail dot com.  Russ
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2010, 05:00:40 AM »

If you need the motor or transmission reprogramed give me a call and I will put you in touch with people to do it a lot cheaper than DD. 
My info is in the profile.
Jack
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