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Author Topic: Series 60 11.1 vs 12.7  (Read 6872 times)
luvrbus
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 07:24:03 PM »

Eric, maybe you should call a different tech you cannot reprogram the ratio of a 4060 it is 0.74:1 in 5th and 0.64:I he can lock the OD's in or out and change the shift patterns but not change the ratio.
That transmission is design to work with a 4:30 to a 4:56 rear gear to use 6th gear some people use a RV dealer to unlock 6th but a Allison dealer usually won't do it without the proper gearing and the best you can do on a Eagle with the drop box is a 4.10:1 and they are hard to fine,that is what Eagle used with the B500, series 60 and with 6th locked out.


good luck
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Hard Headed Ken
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1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2010, 05:38:07 AM »

All 12.7 Series 60 are not the same. There are several models MK, GK, PK, BK and so on. Most Detroit Techs tell me that the BK is the most desirable. It started around 2000 and it is a DDEC IV. It has jets that spray oil under the pistons providing additional cooling, plus the pistons and rods are the conventional style  where the wrist pin goes through the rod instead of bolting to it. The BK can be turned up to 500HP with no durability problem. Some of the other models may not hold up as well at higher HP settings. The following link does a good job explaining the differences.       http://www.ipdparts.com/enews/english/assets/IPDTB0020_DD60_Info.pdf

Ken
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luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2010, 05:52:31 AM »

The PK is the premium engine in the series 60 line the G,T,M and so on are the standard series engines, fwiw T is a DDEC I,U is a DDEC II,K is a DDEC III or IV and V is a DDEC V.The P would be my choice of the 60 series fwiw  


good luck
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 07:00:41 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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TomC
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 08:50:27 AM »

All 12.7 liter Series 60's were capable of putting out 430hp and 1450lb/ft torque.  When comparing to the 8V-71 at 300hp and 800lb/ft torque, building the Series 60 to a higher horsepower is just not necessary.  Granted with the right components, the 12.7 can produce 575hp and 1850lb/ft torque-but at a high cost.  Personally, I don't see the need for more than 430hp and 1450lb/ft torque-besides, if you have the horses, you have to feed them.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
RoyJ
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2010, 06:08:18 PM »

Tom,

Do you know if the S60 ever came in an RV / Firetruck trim? 430hp seems like a really conservative (million mile) rating, considering that's what an ISL would make (though not the torque of course).

What about a Pittsburgh power box or a similar programmer? In an RV bus I feel 250,000 miles of service is plenty. My little 6V71 with N70 injectors and 2500 rpm probably can't make half of that.
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TomC
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2010, 01:33:08 AM »

I believe the highest rating that was used on the 12.7 liter was 500hp and 1650lb/ft torque.  When the 14 liter was brought out, 515hp and 1650lb/ft torque was the highest rating. Main reason the 14 liter was brought out was to counteract the natural horsepower derating effect that exhaust gas recirculation does-in other words, the engine had to be increased from 12.7 to 14.0 liter to maintain the same power output. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
luvrbus
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2010, 08:03:47 AM »

We have a couple of Eagles in the club that have the 12.7 series 60 set on 625 hp Cole Davenport uses a off road ECM and he can set his HP from 500 to 625 without going through Detroit pretty neat set up he has,but when you work for Detroit for 40 years like Cole you know how to get outside the box lol, when his is set on 625 hp he has 2050 lbs of torque that is bunch

good luck
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TomC
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2010, 08:18:07 AM »

Luvrbus- now that sounds more like the kind of power that would make an engine swap to the huge (physical size) Series 60 worth it.  Besides, we don't need a 1 million mile engine.  Set at 625hp and 2050lb/ft torque it should last (depending on driving) around 6-700,000 miles.  Detroit and other engine manufacturers figure the engine life based on how much fuel the engine has burned, not total miles.  So my estimate is based on a 470hp getting 1 million miles in comparison.  The only thing would be cooling.

Course, you could get a 14 liter marine version that puts out 825hp! Could run 2 or 3 radiators.... Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
RoyJ
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2010, 01:42:37 PM »

I would also do an EGR delete on any modern 4 stroke I own. It's one of the dumbest methods of combating emissions, chokes up the entire engine with soot.

Don't know about the S60, but on ISXs, truckers typically see a whole 1mpg gain (from 6 to 7 mpg) with an EGR delete, which would also make regens happen a lot less frequent on a post-07 engine.

Even with no EGR and DPF, modern engine are probably many times cleaner than our old detroits.
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2010, 05:10:47 PM »

So are you saying that the 60 with the 4060 will not work with my 3:73? I thought that would be a good setup?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2010, 05:34:19 PM »

Eric, it is a good setup but 6th gear is not going to do you any good and 5th won't be used that much,check with the guys in club Ben is the only one I know there using the 4060 behind his series 60.
I don't know what Byron is using with his series 60 probably a 4 speed as he runs 3:36 gears and the Eagles with the ISM Cummins are running the 740.
Tim runs a 754 behind his series 60 plenty of 60 series in club along with Cummins and Cat's make a few calls,Jim used the auto shift 10 speed to get his gearing right.
With out the proper gear to rpm ratio your fuel mileage is going to suck


good luck
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 05:44:17 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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TomC
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2010, 09:27:26 PM »

Eric- the 4060 with the Series 60 and 3.73's will be a great combo.  In 4th gear direct your engine speed would be 1809 @ 60; 1959 @ 65 and 2110 @ 70 (top speed in 4th).  In fifth which is a .74 over drive, your engine speed would be 1450 @ 65; 1561 @ 70; 1673 @ 75; 1784 @ 80.  If you could get into sixth which is a .64 overdrive, your engine speed would be 1447 @ 75; 1543 @ 80; 1640 @ 85; 1736 @ 90; 1833 @ 95; 1929 @ 100; 2122 @ 110.  So you see that's a bit fast.

The correct gear to obtain 1600 rpm @ 75mph in sixth will put you at 4.11's.  The exact would be 1595 @ 75.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
luvrbus
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2010, 06:12:57 AM »

Eric, TomC numbers are good but on the 4060 overdrive will only occur when the output shaft is speed is  greater than the turbine speed shaft and it won't happen with 3:73 gears under normal speeds.
If you don't have a manual for the WT Transmission I suggest you get one or Pm me with your address and you can use mine just return it to me the manual will take the guess work out for you the WT transmissions are very complex animals.
I did find out for you most of the guys using the WT changed to 3:36 gears and use the B500 or 4060 as a 4 speed if you go that route just keep your 740 it is a better transmission, one has 4:10 gears and uses 5th


good luck
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 06:33:57 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Ericbsc
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »

Problem is that the p.o. had a rebuilt 8-71n, a 654 allison, and p.s. put on the bus. I ghanged the steering to the tas 65 because it wandered. I found out then that I had a 2100 psi. pump with a 1400 psi. box. Judging from that  and the tranny they chose, I don't think they were the sharpest tacks in tha pack!!LOL. Long and short of it is that I will need a tranny anyway.
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TomC
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2010, 08:28:59 AM »

Eric- the MT654 is a 600 series 5 spd that Allison equipped with a larger torque converter to take up to (if I remember correctly) 930lb/ft of engine torque.  It is one of the best 600 series transmissions made.  Unless you're having problems with it, I would just run with it.
The Sheppard steering gear needs to have over 2000psi to operate properly.  So your PO's weren't as dumb as you think.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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