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Author Topic: is a 6v92 capable of putting out 96 volts when driving?  (Read 4231 times)
happycamperbrat
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2010, 07:51:29 PM »

This would be a VW bus turned ev. I dont know which motor or controller yet and am thinking about just buying a used ev on ebay to gut and put into the VW.

There is a club in this area that has a meeting next month I just found out about where their focus is on building ev vehicles. I am right now just trying to gather information and figure it out or hire someone to do a schematic. I havent bought anything yet, though I have read of things like even forklift motors being used for ev vehicles. I dont need much distance or speed, so I can stay small.



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The Little GTO is a 102" wide and 40' long 1983 GMC RTS II and my name is Teresa in case I forgot to sign my post
Tim Strommen
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2010, 08:09:23 PM »

This would be a VW bus turned ev....
...I havent bought anything yet, though I have read of things like even forklift motors being used for ev vehicles...


I'm not a paid spokesperson, affiliated with anyone who works there, nor a paying customer - but check out EV Parts.

If you are building it yourself, I'd suggest not doing the "pull to charge" method - you will be able to pick your own batteries and charger, so you will be able to adapt it to charge from your bus alternator much easier than if you had a "store bought" EV.  Keep in mind that most home-built EV's have a 30-60 mile/charge range at city speeds, and take a lot of power to recharge.

There isn't much to an EV - a body/frame, steering, brakes, and a drive system (batteries, controller, motor, speed input - see pick below...).  On top of that, you need to get the power for the lights (to be road legal), this is easy to do with a DC-to-DC converter.  Most home-built EV conversions retain the original manual transmission for the drivetrain - so on a VW, I'd recommend you learn stick if you haven't already Wink.

There is little else involved except "will to do it", time, and money.

-T
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 08:11:28 PM by Tim Strommen » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2010, 08:23:40 PM »

I should have mentioned - you should go with an AC motor/controller if you want the benefit of regen...

Like this.

-T
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Fremont, CA
1984 Gillig Phantom 40/102
DD 6V92TA (MUI, 275HP) - Allison HT740
Conversion Progress: 10% (9-years invested, 30 to go Smiley)
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2010, 08:46:09 PM »

   Just to play devils advocate..Wouldn't using the toad to charge the batts. (dynamic) be like towing it with the brakes dragging?
   Would using an inverter and battery charger be easier? 24 volts from the big bus to the inverter, charger and batteries in the little bus.
   No mater which system you develop I would think that in your area solar panels on the little bus would be a help.
   Forklift SCR and EV1 systems along with their drive motors have been used for years on the Salt Flats to set world land speed records for electric vehicles...Cable
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Sofar Sogood
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2010, 08:48:39 PM »

So according to that really nice site I would get away with something like this http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/motors--dot/48-to-96-volt-street-vehicle-motors/mt5615.htm and then have a machine shop make an adapter to fit the transmission on the VW (and yes, lol..... I know how to drive a stick...... after all I am a woman with children!  Wink Cheesy ) And yes, the dc-dc converter for lights and radio or whatever. So for all this with that site I could get going for about $5000 plus the cost of batteries plus the cost of wires plus the cost of machining the adapter for the transmission. This is if I want to go with new stuff. I often see ev vehicles of comparable weight on ebay or craigslist for about $2000 usually home built stuff when the owner moves further from work or whatever and the ev doesn't get used and they dont want to lose their investment altogether because of the short lifespan of batteries OR they are upgrading their system.

With this kind of a set up, Mike has suggested that I be real cautious about running those heavy big wires from the bus to the toad. They will need extra protection against vibration and getting bounced around against moving metal parts like the hitch or road or whatever. I have to figure out something to protect them.

Would I just simply have a large inverter on the bus without a charger and hook the wires run straight from the batteries to the inverter or wouldn't I need some sort of a regulator in the system somewhere? And I need something where it would be easy to plug and unplug...
 

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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2010, 08:55:39 PM »

I would like to find out the cost difference in doing the alternator hookup on the rv and the ac motor regen. Cost will be a big factor here lol

As for running the house system, what do I need in between the batteries and the inverter on the rv? I thought I would run a larger pure sine wave inverter (my guess is I wont need one with a charger).

I want to put my little 3500 Onan generator in the VW to recharge the batteries when boondocking and to use in a pinch if Im out in town somewhere and need a quick charge to get back to camp. How would I set that up in the VW? What would I need to buy?
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The Little GTO is a 102" wide and 40' long 1983 GMC RTS II and my name is Teresa in case I forgot to sign my post
happycamperbrat
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2010, 09:04:12 PM »

Sorry Cable, you were posting when I was.
"Wouldn't using the toad to charge the batts. (dynamic) be like towing it with the brakes dragging?"
Sure sounds like it from what Tim said.... Instead of going 25mph I would be doing 5mph  Tongue

"inverter and battery charger be easier? 24 volts from the big bus to the inverter, charger and batteries in the little bus."
Dont know..... my job here is Happy Birthday messenger lol My ideas drive me nuts cuz I think of things I have no idea how to do lol
 
"No mater which system you develop I would think that in your area solar panels on the little bus would be a help."
Yes and no. The heat here destroys them quicker. Also when I travel in the rv I want to get OUT of the desert lol. I head for the trees!

"Forklift SCR and EV1 systems along with their drive motors have been used for years on the Salt Flats to set world land speed records for electric vehicles...Cable "

For anyone who thinks they cant be fast......... haha!! The torque on these little evs put a combustion engine to shame! Look what this little nothing Datsun did to a Corvette
Electric Drag racing: White Zombie
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:07:59 PM by happycamperbrat » Logged

The Little GTO is a 102" wide and 40' long 1983 GMC RTS II and my name is Teresa in case I forgot to sign my post
RoyJ
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2010, 09:17:13 PM »

Just want to add someting regarding obtaining high voltage from an alternator - it's completely do-able, and pretty simple to get high voltage. However, getting regulated high voltage is not easy - you'll need a custom voltage controller.

The method is simple - full fielding the alternator. It runs in unregulated mode, and can easily put out over 100V DC. Every alternator is slightly difference, so you'll have to do some research on how to full field yours.

Another thing: an alternator is current limited, not power limited. A 12V, 200A alternator, will also make 200A at 24V, and 200A at 120V. Current is what causes the field windings to heat up, not voltage. There is still a reasonable limit, of course, as I'm sure at extreme voltages the diodes and winding insulation would break down.
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fe2_o3
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2010, 09:44:10 PM »

   My other concern is the gasses released while the batts. are charging. Some sort of dog house with outside venting will be required. Unless you have unlimited funds to buy lithium battery packs...cable
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Sofar Sogood
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2010, 09:55:35 PM »

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha "Unless you have unlimited funds to buy lithium battery packs...cable" hahahahahahahahahahahaha   Cry

Roy I have no way to full field an alternator because I have no idea what that even means  Huh  Huh  Huh
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:57:56 PM by happycamperbrat » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2010, 10:09:47 PM »

  "my job here is Happy Birthday messenger" And you're doing a Damnfine job of it too...Cable
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Sofar Sogood
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RoyJ
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2010, 10:54:41 PM »

Roy I have no way to full field an alternator because I have no idea what that even means  Huh  Huh  Huh

It's one of those things that sounds more complicated than it actually is. Full fielding is simply by-passing the regulator and running your alternator in "let her loose" mode. On my bus's Leece Neville, it's as simple as grounding one of the brushes to the negative pole of the alternator.

Doing so causes the alternator to apply full voltage to the field windings, which in turn generates more voltage, and that higher voltage makes the windings even stronger, and the cycle continues.

I would never use it for battery charging though, as you have no way of controlling what voltage you get. You'll be seeing any where from 30v to 150v+ driving down the road.
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Tim Strommen
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2010, 11:21:16 PM »

Sorry Cable, you were posting when I was.
"Wouldn't using the toad to charge the batts. (dynamic) be like towing it with the brakes dragging?"
Sure sounds like it from what Tim said.... Instead of going 25mph I would be doing 5mph  Tongue

Okay, I may be guilty of a bit of hyperbole there, but you can get the idea that dragging your heals may not be the best way to charge up a car…

...So for all this with that site I could get going for about $5000 plus the cost of batteries plus the cost of wires plus the cost of machining the adapter for the transmission. This is if I want to go with new stuff...

You forgot the conversion of any vacuum brake booster, and repair parts for the original vehicle (it may need a new clutch, shocks, etc...), and the framing for the battery pack (a monocoque construction of the VW will mean you need to build a battery cradle).  Whatever demons are in the chassis you pick you have to deal with...

...With this kind of a set up, Mike has suggested that I be real cautious about running those heavy big wires from the bus to the toad. They will need extra protection against vibration and getting bounced around against moving metal parts like the hitch or road or whatever...

Big safety item = FUSE.  Yes a 4/0 cable will try really hard to carry 2000Amps if it shorts + to -, but a fast-blow fuse on the + wire should keep a catastrophic failure from burning down your party wagon (you need these in your battery bank for the EV anyway).  Much like welders and their cables, you need to keep an eye on the wear of them and the condition of the jacket – you can only do so much to keep the cables from rubbing on things, bunjee and plastic conduit between the bus and the VW holding up the cables (away from the hitch) would be a start (you’ll need some loops of slack on each end), but even then they will eventually degrade under sunlight exposure.  There are standard high-current quick-disconnect plugs you can use for this kind of cable (the same type you use on a forklift to hook-up the battery pack).

...Would I just simply have a large inverter on the bus without a charger and hook the wires run straight from the batteries to the inverter or wouldn't I need some sort of a regulator in the system somewhere? And I need something where it would be easy to plug and unplug...

You will need some control first (of course this is after you get the EV going…).  You won’t want the EV to run down your starting (chassis) or house batteries when the bus is not running.  Also if you are dead-set on a 96V system for the EV, this is kinda cool – you can put a few high-power relays in the EV’s battery bank and have it reconfigure itself for 24VDC or 12VDC when the EV isn’t “running”.  If you hook all 8 of your 12V batteries +to- on the outer +and- you’ll see 96V.  But, if you hook pairs of batteries +to-, you’ll only see 24V.  If you then connect those 4 pairs +to+ and –to– you still have 24V, but 4x the amps available (and you only need 24V to charge it from your bus, which you could do either with a second alternator or an isolator).  See the below diagram as a rough example.  Hook the relays up to the EV’s ignition switch so it can reconfigure the pack for 96V again only when you need it “automajically”.

Just want to add something regarding obtaining high voltage from an alternator - it's completely do-able, and pretty simple to get high voltage. However, getting regulated high voltage is not easy - you'll need a custom voltage controller…
…Another thing: an alternator is current limited, not power limited. A 12V, 200A alternator, will also make 200A at 24V, and 200A at 120V. Current is what causes the field windings to heat up, not voltage. There is still a reasonable limit, of course, as I'm sure at extreme voltages the diodes and winding insulation would break down.

The rotating speed of the alternator will determine the maximum voltage it outputs.  To properly get an alternator to output higher voltage, you need to rewind it (not fun) – most alternators are designed to a maximum intermittent RPM of 6500, with 5000 sustained as the limit.  You also will probably need to replace all of the diodes in the rectifier since it has a maximum voltage (the part that takes the alternating current out of the alternator, and makes it roughly DC).  To mildly correct RoyJ, an alternator is not “voltage” limited – and the “power” you can create is determined by temperature and the point of saturating the magnetic field (when it is fully saturated you can’t make more electricity, only more heat {real bad!!}).

-T
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 11:58:23 PM by Tim Strommen » Logged

Fremont, CA
1984 Gillig Phantom 40/102
DD 6V92TA (MUI, 275HP) - Allison HT740
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 04:08:24 AM »

Jeremy I love you!!!

Wow, this thread gets better and better...


Tim Strommen has rightly pointed out a couple of 'issues' with the charge-as-you-tow idea - in principle (there's that term again) both could be overcome quite easily by, for example, fitting a bypass cable to isolate the speed controller when charging, and a rheostat to limit the charge current, and hence the towing load on the bus. But there's no doubt that the 'simple' charge-as-you-tow approach does begin to become complicated in practice.

The charge-by-cable approach probably is ultimately better, mainly because it gives you more control of the charging process. How exactly you do it - eg. DC from the alternator to the toad's batteries, or via AC from an inverter and a charger - probably depends mostly on how quickly you wish to charge the toad's batteries:-

The toad will, presumably, have an on-board charger which you will use to charge it's batteries over-night when at home. If you can wait a similar length of time for the toad batteries to recharge whilst on a trip in the bus, the same method can be used, either from shore power at a campsite, or plugged into the bus's inverter when driving. It's only if you need to charge the batteries much more quickly that you need to start thinking of higher-output systems - whether they be 96v conversions of your alternator, or a charge-as-you-tow system.


Jeremy
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2010, 09:06:20 AM »

Awesome! Awesome! Awesome! Guys you are the best!  Kiss Kiss Kiss

Now just point me to the bank to rob and I will be ready to go in about a week!!! Otherwise, stay tuned because I am going to do this but it will take longer!!!
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