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Author Topic: Off-Road Fuel  (Read 4805 times)
Kenny
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« on: October 15, 2010, 07:59:05 AM »

Anyone ever use off-road fuel in their Bus or generator. I understand it is much cheaper. Kenny
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 08:06:11 AM »

Just don't get caught using it in your bus, you won't like the fine. You can use it in your genset, but it's not worth the effort in my opinion.
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 08:09:47 AM »

This has been discussed here in depth some time ago.  It is fine to use it for the generator or Webasto, but not legal for the main engine.  As I understand it, the penalties can be severe but the chance of getting caught is slim.  It then becomes a moral issue and is up to you.  It can be a PITA because you can't just pull up to the pump and fill the bus (go directly to jail).  You thus have to fill fifty gallon drums and carry them to the bus where you cannot be seen putting it in.

Not really worth the savings unless you are already an off road fuel user.  In Florida, you must show identification to purchase.
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cody
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 08:26:01 AM »

Up here off road fuel is simply fuel without the highway tax added so it is cheaper, I saw one bus one time pulled up to an offroad pump and he was filling, I walked up to compliment him on his bus, it was a beauty, mine was parked off on the side, he had duel fills so he could fill from both sides but one side was labled engine and the other was labled generator, lol cheap trick but how many would know that they arn't separate tanks and are actually connected lol.  The differnce is easily spotted by the added dye but home heating fuel is the same thing as diesel and isn't dyed and doesn't carry highway tax so many just have a tank in their yards up here and have heating fuel delivered.  With risk sometimes come fines if a person is caught.  Michigan is working very hard to kill any kind of independant thought, now they are working to legislate the use of biodiesel that people are brewing to put in their cars, the government will always do what they can to get their due.
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 08:26:54 AM »

 Keep in mind that if you do use any off road fuel that it will still show up if they test for it even after running 4-5 tanks of legal fuel thru the tank. A couple of years ago they had a station set up between Yuma and Quartzsite to check for off road fuel. Every southbound car, truck, or motorhome that used diesel was required to stop.  Only reason they waved me thru and did not check me was that they already had a bunch of rigs pulled over and traffic was backing up. Not only a very big fine but i heard that they can impound your rig too.
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cody
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 08:29:06 AM »

I think we can be reasonably assured that if the government or city thinks they can make a dollar, they will go after it, it's the nature of the beast lol.
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 08:32:47 AM »

Not meaning to be argumentative Len but you CAN just pull up to the pumps and fill with dyed fuel.  I did it completely unintentionally (tell that to the revenuer when he dips the tank!!) in Helena, Montana a couple of years ago now.  We stopped to visit Skip and I fueled before we left town.  There was a scrap of paper hanging on the pump but I didn't pay any attention to it until after I already had the first $75 in and had the pump started again for the 2nd $75.  By then boredom had set in so I actually read the paper and realized I was putting red fuel in the tank.  By then I figured I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb so I let the pump trip out at $75 and then sweated it until we got across the border.  I've burned farm fuel in the past (legally) and never been dipped but there's always a first time.  

And that dye stays in the fuel for a L-O-N-G time.  I was working on my Proheat about a month later and the fuel was still clearly red two fills later.
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 08:38:40 AM »

There is a fuel distributor by my house that also has a gas station.  They have a whole bank of pumps just for diesel vehicles including both large and small nozzles.  One of the pumps is non-taxed diesel.  I don't think you need to do anything special to use the non-taxed pump.  It is well marked as being off road/non-taxed fuel.

If I told the minimum wage clerks I was filling the generator tank and filled the main tank instead I am pretty sure they wouldn't know the difference.  No, I would never run un-taxed diesel since it isn't legal and the fines are large.

I decided not to install a seperate tank for the generator since I don't have the space and it would take years to pay for the extra tank based on my usage.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:05:06 AM by belfert » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 08:50:53 AM »

There is no need to buy red fuel if you keep track of how much your heating and generator uses of the taxed fuel just fill out the right forms and they will refund the taxes, me I never wanted those guys in my life it was just another headache for a few bucks 



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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 08:52:56 AM »

Alternatively, I recall that a couple forum members that user their generator a lot keep a log and receipts of generator fuel purchases and generator usage.  Then file a federal tax form to get back the fuel tax paid on generator fuel (federal taxes only iirc).  Same would apply to a Webasto type hydronic heater.  (Oops, Clifford mentioned it while I was typing this, oh well, that puts me in good company.)

Whether or not it is worth the extra effor would depend on how much you use the generator and/or diesel fired heat.   Unless a person full times, or at least uses it often, and relies heavily on the generator/heat, I don't know that it would be worth the added paperwork.  Also I'm not clear on whether that gets filed with your federal income tax return, but if so, it could increase chances of being audited since "untypical" deductions and credits can flag returns for a closer look.

And just to clarify how much is "large" when discussing the penalty for misuse of off road fuel - A Google search found this from Nevada, likely typical of most states:

http://www.dmvstat.com/pdfforms/mc025.pdf

Quote
2. For any violation described in subsection 1, the Department may:
(a) If the violation is a first offense, impose an administrative fine of not more than
$2,500 and suspend any license issued to that person pursuant to this chapter for not
more than 30 days;
(b) If the violation is a second offense within a period of 4 years, impose an
administrative fine of not more than $5,000 and suspend any license issued to that
person pursuant to this chapter for not more than 60 days; and
(c) If the violation is a third or subsequent offense within a period of 4 years, impose an
administrative fine of not more than $10,000 and revoke any license issued to that
person pursuant to this chapter.
All administrative fines assessed by the Motor Carrier Division are unrelated to any fines
or penalties assessed or any other action taken by law enforcement officers


As that information is intended for both purchaser and retailer/wholesaler, I suspect the reference to license revocation applies to reseller's license.

It has been rare that buses get checked, but as Cody observed, I think everyone can expect enforcement efforts to increase as jurisdictions seek more revenues from fines to offset losses in tax revenues.
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cody
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 09:02:41 AM »

Just as a thought, for those that don't venture far from home and can fill at home and return for the next fill, the question would be, does your local heating fuel contrator add dye to their fuel, you can get number 1 fuel oil or number 2 fuel oil or even a blend of the 2 from most any heating fuel contractor delivered directly to your tank in your yard.  I have a small fuel oil heater in a shed and found out that I can get fuel delivered in bulk with a phone call to the fuel company, in this area many have converted from fuel oil furncases to gas furnaces but some still use fuel oil.  I've often thought about getting a 500 or 1000 gallon tank set up with a hose and nozzle added purely to provide overflow protection in the event of expansion in hot weather. lol
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 09:06:35 AM »

Sure have.  The ranch sold the pickup and it sat on the car lot.  3 months later they dipped it and sent the ranch a $10,000 bill.  Dont know how it turned out though.
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 09:29:25 AM »

At the one station in Florida where I did purchase off road fuel for my tractor, they were very careful.  Perhaps they had been bitten in the past.  They would not turn on the pump until you had produced identification.  They would write down your ID, license number, and gallons purchased.  I don't know if that info was turned over to the state or just kept for their protection.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 09:58:49 AM »

Here in North Carolina, I purchase non-highway fuel for my mower and you either have to give them a tax ID# or they charge you sales tax. NC sales tax is still a lot cheaper than highway use tax but I would never put it in my bus due to the very hefty fines.
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 10:09:23 AM »

Chances are slim that you would ever be checked, until you have an incident/accident.  Then be sure you will be checked and fined appropriately if found in violation.

just my 2 cents worth

you have to decide if the 40 cents per gallon is worth the risk

dick egler
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