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Author Topic: Off-Road Fuel  (Read 4854 times)
Kenny
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« on: October 15, 2010, 07:59:05 AM »

Anyone ever use off-road fuel in their Bus or generator. I understand it is much cheaper. Kenny
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 08:06:11 AM »

Just don't get caught using it in your bus, you won't like the fine. You can use it in your genset, but it's not worth the effort in my opinion.
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 08:09:47 AM »

This has been discussed here in depth some time ago.  It is fine to use it for the generator or Webasto, but not legal for the main engine.  As I understand it, the penalties can be severe but the chance of getting caught is slim.  It then becomes a moral issue and is up to you.  It can be a PITA because you can't just pull up to the pump and fill the bus (go directly to jail).  You thus have to fill fifty gallon drums and carry them to the bus where you cannot be seen putting it in.

Not really worth the savings unless you are already an off road fuel user.  In Florida, you must show identification to purchase.
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 08:26:01 AM »

Up here off road fuel is simply fuel without the highway tax added so it is cheaper, I saw one bus one time pulled up to an offroad pump and he was filling, I walked up to compliment him on his bus, it was a beauty, mine was parked off on the side, he had duel fills so he could fill from both sides but one side was labled engine and the other was labled generator, lol cheap trick but how many would know that they arn't separate tanks and are actually connected lol.  The differnce is easily spotted by the added dye but home heating fuel is the same thing as diesel and isn't dyed and doesn't carry highway tax so many just have a tank in their yards up here and have heating fuel delivered.  With risk sometimes come fines if a person is caught.  Michigan is working very hard to kill any kind of independant thought, now they are working to legislate the use of biodiesel that people are brewing to put in their cars, the government will always do what they can to get their due.
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 08:26:54 AM »

 Keep in mind that if you do use any off road fuel that it will still show up if they test for it even after running 4-5 tanks of legal fuel thru the tank. A couple of years ago they had a station set up between Yuma and Quartzsite to check for off road fuel. Every southbound car, truck, or motorhome that used diesel was required to stop.  Only reason they waved me thru and did not check me was that they already had a bunch of rigs pulled over and traffic was backing up. Not only a very big fine but i heard that they can impound your rig too.
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 08:29:06 AM »

I think we can be reasonably assured that if the government or city thinks they can make a dollar, they will go after it, it's the nature of the beast lol.
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bobofthenorth
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 08:32:47 AM »

Not meaning to be argumentative Len but you CAN just pull up to the pumps and fill with dyed fuel.  I did it completely unintentionally (tell that to the revenuer when he dips the tank!!) in Helena, Montana a couple of years ago now.  We stopped to visit Skip and I fueled before we left town.  There was a scrap of paper hanging on the pump but I didn't pay any attention to it until after I already had the first $75 in and had the pump started again for the 2nd $75.  By then boredom had set in so I actually read the paper and realized I was putting red fuel in the tank.  By then I figured I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb so I let the pump trip out at $75 and then sweated it until we got across the border.  I've burned farm fuel in the past (legally) and never been dipped but there's always a first time.  

And that dye stays in the fuel for a L-O-N-G time.  I was working on my Proheat about a month later and the fuel was still clearly red two fills later.
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 08:38:40 AM »

There is a fuel distributor by my house that also has a gas station.  They have a whole bank of pumps just for diesel vehicles including both large and small nozzles.  One of the pumps is non-taxed diesel.  I don't think you need to do anything special to use the non-taxed pump.  It is well marked as being off road/non-taxed fuel.

If I told the minimum wage clerks I was filling the generator tank and filled the main tank instead I am pretty sure they wouldn't know the difference.  No, I would never run un-taxed diesel since it isn't legal and the fines are large.

I decided not to install a seperate tank for the generator since I don't have the space and it would take years to pay for the extra tank based on my usage.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:05:06 AM by belfert » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 08:50:53 AM »

There is no need to buy red fuel if you keep track of how much your heating and generator uses of the taxed fuel just fill out the right forms and they will refund the taxes, me I never wanted those guys in my life it was just another headache for a few bucks 



good luck
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 08:52:56 AM »

Alternatively, I recall that a couple forum members that user their generator a lot keep a log and receipts of generator fuel purchases and generator usage.  Then file a federal tax form to get back the fuel tax paid on generator fuel (federal taxes only iirc).  Same would apply to a Webasto type hydronic heater.  (Oops, Clifford mentioned it while I was typing this, oh well, that puts me in good company.)

Whether or not it is worth the extra effor would depend on how much you use the generator and/or diesel fired heat.   Unless a person full times, or at least uses it often, and relies heavily on the generator/heat, I don't know that it would be worth the added paperwork.  Also I'm not clear on whether that gets filed with your federal income tax return, but if so, it could increase chances of being audited since "untypical" deductions and credits can flag returns for a closer look.

And just to clarify how much is "large" when discussing the penalty for misuse of off road fuel - A Google search found this from Nevada, likely typical of most states:

http://www.dmvstat.com/pdfforms/mc025.pdf

Quote
2. For any violation described in subsection 1, the Department may:
(a) If the violation is a first offense, impose an administrative fine of not more than
$2,500 and suspend any license issued to that person pursuant to this chapter for not
more than 30 days;
(b) If the violation is a second offense within a period of 4 years, impose an
administrative fine of not more than $5,000 and suspend any license issued to that
person pursuant to this chapter for not more than 60 days; and
(c) If the violation is a third or subsequent offense within a period of 4 years, impose an
administrative fine of not more than $10,000 and revoke any license issued to that
person pursuant to this chapter.
All administrative fines assessed by the Motor Carrier Division are unrelated to any fines
or penalties assessed or any other action taken by law enforcement officers


As that information is intended for both purchaser and retailer/wholesaler, I suspect the reference to license revocation applies to reseller's license.

It has been rare that buses get checked, but as Cody observed, I think everyone can expect enforcement efforts to increase as jurisdictions seek more revenues from fines to offset losses in tax revenues.
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cody
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 09:02:41 AM »

Just as a thought, for those that don't venture far from home and can fill at home and return for the next fill, the question would be, does your local heating fuel contrator add dye to their fuel, you can get number 1 fuel oil or number 2 fuel oil or even a blend of the 2 from most any heating fuel contractor delivered directly to your tank in your yard.  I have a small fuel oil heater in a shed and found out that I can get fuel delivered in bulk with a phone call to the fuel company, in this area many have converted from fuel oil furncases to gas furnaces but some still use fuel oil.  I've often thought about getting a 500 or 1000 gallon tank set up with a hose and nozzle added purely to provide overflow protection in the event of expansion in hot weather. lol
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 09:06:35 AM »

Sure have.  The ranch sold the pickup and it sat on the car lot.  3 months later they dipped it and sent the ranch a $10,000 bill.  Dont know how it turned out though.
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 09:29:25 AM »

At the one station in Florida where I did purchase off road fuel for my tractor, they were very careful.  Perhaps they had been bitten in the past.  They would not turn on the pump until you had produced identification.  They would write down your ID, license number, and gallons purchased.  I don't know if that info was turned over to the state or just kept for their protection.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 09:58:49 AM »

Here in North Carolina, I purchase non-highway fuel for my mower and you either have to give them a tax ID# or they charge you sales tax. NC sales tax is still a lot cheaper than highway use tax but I would never put it in my bus due to the very hefty fines.
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 10:09:23 AM »

Chances are slim that you would ever be checked, until you have an incident/accident.  Then be sure you will be checked and fined appropriately if found in violation.

just my 2 cents worth

you have to decide if the 40 cents per gallon is worth the risk

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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 10:31:54 AM »

In AZ where I live the schools use dyed fuel in their buses and the Indians use it in everything so here we get a 8 cents a gallon break at the pump for RV's under 26,000 lbs 


good luck
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 10:53:12 AM »

The state of Minnesota checks for dyed fuel at many horse shows and other livestock exhibitions.  Some livestock/horse shows even post on their website that diesel vehicles will be checked.  Apparently farmers like to illegally use their non-taxed fuel in their trucks used on public highways.

I have personally never seen a checkpoint to check for dyed fuel, but I am sure it happens.
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 11:11:34 AM »

Personally, I don't mind paying the tax.  It's the amount that goes to the oil company I would like to avoid.
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2010, 11:13:51 AM »

I've been told that the DMV can randomly stop you and check your fuel if they want to. I know a guy that was stopped in his 1 ton dually pulling his camper and they checked his fuel. If you google it, you'll see that there is a $10,000 FEDERAL fine for using off-road fuel on the highway.
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2010, 11:21:14 AM »

To expand a bit on what I posted earlier, I think this is an area where jurisdictions differ dramatically in how they treat access to dyed fuel.  The jurisdiction that I am most familiar with controls dyed fuel very carefully.  I can't buy dyed fuel unless my permit to do so is on file at my fuel supplier.  My cardlock card is either validated for dyed fuel or it isn't.  There are no public pumps dispensing dyed fuel.  In Montana however it appears that the dyed pumps are intermingled with the regular pumps.  I just pulled up to the most accessible pump and inadvertently filled with dyed fuel.  That wouldn't be a defense but its what happened and it could easily happen to anybody else whose experience was with a heavily controlled jurisdiction.

Farmers up here used to get pinched for putting dyed fuel in their cars.  The rule here is that dyed fuel only goes in vehicles that are registered to use it - "farm" plates IOW.  I think that whole area has got a little murky since the arrival of SUVs but I haven't really paid much attention to it.
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2010, 12:31:01 PM »

When I was driving truck, I was stopped on the side of the road in Montana by the DOT for an inspection. They dipped the tank.  I asked if the fuel was red from using ATF in it-would I be fined?  They said that I would be ticketed then the fuel would be analyzed at the lab-which they can tell the difference between ATF and dye.
In my truck, I have a 150 gal fuel tank for the big engine and a 75 gal fuel tank for the generator.  Then I can either run off road fuel, or just keep the receipts for the gen fuel and get a refund at the end of the year.
Bottom line though-it is just not worth the few extra bucks you'd save running red dyed off road fuel (or purple dyed marine fuel) for the cost of the fine.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2010, 01:26:33 PM »

I built a 40 gallon tank for the generator and Aqua Hot.  The main reason was to separate out the fuel use to keep better track of mileage with the SilverLeaf and take advantage of the red fuel, if available. 

Up until recently, I have not been able to find red fuel.  Now have a few locations scoped out.  In CO the difference is about $.43 as I recall.  I think most states are in the $.40 -$.50 range.

We have a station close to the house that sells red fuel.  The difference is $.20 so I thought it was not worth it.  Then found out they are pocketing half the difference!!! Angry  Now that I know it is over 40 cents I have been looking more closely for the red fuel.



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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2010, 01:33:21 PM »

Jim, I thought Co had only a 20.5 cents a gallon on fuel and the Feds have a 5 cents a gallon how in the world would it be 40 cents ?
 
Sorry about that Jim I read were Co is adding 10 cents a gal tax on fuel in Oct 2010 and the Fed tax is .24 cents now damn no reason fuel cost so much in your state that is .54 cents a gal just in taxes fwiw diesel fuel at the gate today was 2.28.2 per gal a 12% increase is coming next week.
That said Jim the guy was giving you the state tax off that is all he can do it will cost you more than it is worth to fill out the Feds forms to receive their part of the taxes

good luck


« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 02:30:20 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2010, 02:01:21 PM »

Federal is 24.4/gallon according to this report published by the API:

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/July_2010_Gasoline_and_Diesel_Summary.pdf

It breaks out fuel taxes by state and region as well as average for the U.S.

It reports that in July 2010 the total state and federal excise tax on diesel in Colorado was 44.9/gallon and the national average was 52.5.

Still not worth the risk of getting caught with off road fuel.  Separate tanks make it easier, but considering that atttiude and behavior some folks are seeing in the DOT and related officials lately, you might find yourself being made to prove that there is no hidden way to direct the aux tank to the main one or to the engine.  Even if you don't have to pay the fine, it could make for a pretty unpleasant experience. 

I would still say that if your usage is enough to make it worth doing anything, the better bet is buy road fuel and apply for the refund.
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2010, 02:16:37 PM »

This is stupid I just checked some fuel bills for 2000 and I was paying .58 cents a gal for off road fuel now it is over 2 bucks but on the news today they are saying don't worry no inflation so us old folks don't get a cost of living adjustment again this year wouldn't do any good anyway they just raise your Medicare payments lol


good luck
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2010, 03:54:20 PM »

OK.I agree it's not worth the fine!but why can't they get us a highway fuel that will equal the performance of the off road in our two strokes?
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2010, 05:03:13 PM »

Robert,

I think you are mistaken in your belief.  There is absolutely no difference between off road and highway fuel except for the dye, which is added as the fuel goes into the tanker truck.
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2010, 05:27:12 PM »

according to our local co-op there is 5 points difference.and better upper cyl lube for 2 stroke..Ill Basin crude..for some reason several years ago I did test and got about a full mpg better mileage over 600 miles..I use upper cyl lube additive now.do I need it don't know but it is cheap.I did tell a difference in power..not a scientific test or conclusion. Not worth the ticket. The test was during the time the fed relaxed the band do to a shortage of highway fuel.  Only lasted July til Oct 1st.in our area..whats the difference in centane for veggie diesel?
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2010, 05:43:27 PM »

Bob, as of June 2010 both are the same with sulfur ppm 15 no more heavy fuel any longer for us install a fuel cooler on the 8v92 it will make a big difference in the power.

good luck
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 05:49:38 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2010, 05:49:43 PM »

thanks for explanation!fuel cooler? like trans cooler on outside radiator? would be easy.  Bob
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2010, 06:09:50 PM »

Your XLE should have one between the fuel tank and engine unless somebody removed it never saw a Prevost without one made after 1994.
It looks more like a oversize power steering cooler fwiw you lose 5% HP for every 20 * over 95 degrees  and here in AZ in July with the pavement temps around 140* to 160* that is a bunch about 3 pm every day you can feel the difference in power when the fuel  gets hot



good luck
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 06:51:53 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2010, 06:13:20 PM »

I would thing that keeping the tank as full as possible would also help then.
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2010, 06:24:14 PM »

will check and see.if it was robbed  I will replace...Thanks again to all for the education..I learn something new every day..Bob
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