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Author Topic: one more wood question  (Read 2626 times)
robertglines1
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« on: October 20, 2010, 06:18:48 AM »

when installing hardwood floors can planks be full length across bus..I have noticed most have end joints.necessary? Bob
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 06:36:12 AM »

Robert, if I am reading this right you do need to leave a 1/4" gap around the edges for expansion. Plus you do not want any of your joints to line up. So take your first board and cut about 3ft off and start there with the end that has the tong on the end.Use something that is a 1/4" (like a strip of plywood) and lay your next board down backwards up against the board. where the two joint would meet mark it. It does not have to be exact (your trim will cover any imperfections. Cut there. You should have the piece with the grove on the end. Side it in place. You will have about a 1/4" gap on the end. Next start with the other piece that you cut off with the tong on it. Put it in place for next row. Continue on with a new board measuring the same way. Of coarse add glue or nails depending on what you are using.
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cody
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 06:55:46 AM »

Bob, I'm assuming you used your planer to S4S them, so you didn't t&g the ends only the sides. one question I have is did you cut any relief into the backside of the boards, the relief is a stabilizing ellement that keeps the wood from cupping or warping, also if you have a camphered edge from your cutters you can duplicate that camphur on the ends so that they can butt up together and match.  For the finishing I would use a high solids varnish, a polyurathane type specific for marine or exterior use, in the past it was simple spar or not but now you have many choices including a product called Bartop that many people are using that gives the apperance of like 20 coats. Lightly sand between coats to scuff the surface for better adhesion.  A coat of stain, if you want any, should be wiped on before you varnish, it has to go directly into the wood surface, it'll enhance any grain patterning or tigering you may have in the wood.  Leave a small gap around the perimeters for expansion.  The poly's are a plastic varnish and very forgiving for the long run, they don't generally crack or or craze in time cause of the flexability built into the poly's.  I wouldn't worry about running the wood full width, you can do that without a problem, as a matter of fact, I would recommend that every few boards you run one full width to even out any runs that may be forming in the pattern.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 08:19:12 AM »

Bob, the way I read your first post makes me think you're installing the boards with the length running across the bus.  Whether you're doing that, or (the more customary?) lengthwise to the bus, you'll need to account for wood movement.  Wood will continue to move, and change with the seasons (moisture content) of their environment.  Good construction takes that into account, you can't thwart mother nature.  

Boards will cup, as the tree rings try to straighten themselves out.  Wood will move, primarily across the grain, with humidity.  That's the reason for frame and panel constuction of doors.  One of the "rules" is -- inside of tree, outside of project.  So, if the wood cups, the side edges go down, keeping the joint tight.  Tongue and Groove, of course, helps keep the joints together.  That also puts the harder part of the tree on the wear surface.  

If you're looking at the end of a flatsawn board, the rings should look like     \         /    
                                                                                                                   \ __ /                                                                                                                      

It's easy to use a router table to put tongues and grooves on boards - both the sides, and the ends.  Several suppliers sell decent tongue and groove bits - I personally like CMT, but I also have a few Freud bits.  Stay away from the cheap imports, not worth the money.  As Cody mentioned, you could put a small chamfer on the tops, that would disguise any slight movement in the joints.  It could, though, be a dirt catcher.  

Another principle is that whatever you do to the top of the board, you should do to the bottom - so moisture reacts the same on both sides.  When I resaw a board to make veneer, or a bookmatched panel, I take it right from the bandsaw to my thicknessing sander or surface planer, to open up the pores on the side not cut.  That would argue that you would want to finish both sides of the board with the same material, same number of coats.    

If you install the boards lenthwise, parallel to the long axis of the bus, you'll need to leave a little room against each wall.  If you install across the bus, each board will move, so you could run into difficulty if you butt the boards tightly to each other.  The T&G principle is to anchor one edge of each board, leaving the other edge free to move, but it's anchored in the vertical plane by the next board.

One alternative that I've seen pictured here, is to install the boards at a 45 degree angle to the long axis of the bus.  That could also take care of wood movement issues, but it depends on your personal taste - can you accept something not parallel, or at 90 degrees to, the axis of the bus.
  
A disclaimer, I'm discussing woodworking in general.  I don't have any experience with wood flooring in my coach, I'm keeping the original RCA Rubber flooring.

Here's a pretty good write-up on how wood moves.

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/wood_movement.php


Arthur
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 08:26:39 AM by Runcutter » Logged

Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
1968 PD-4107

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 08:31:21 AM »

Just keep in mind if you do chamfer the boards and run them across the bus you will need a vacuum to clean instead of a broom. You will fight the dirt in the chamfer from now on.
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cody
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 09:07:40 AM »

Depends on how deep the camfer is, 99% of the hardwood flooring available now has a camfer of some sort, it's very hard to find hardwood flooring that has a T&G with a butt seam tho that is the traditional way from years ago, the reason I asked is because Bob has a sawmill and I'm assuming also a commercial planer and depending on the age of the cutters it may be camfered already, newer knives seem to do up a camfered edge and older ones the butt seam, I have both and my old oliver uses the butt edge for a T&G application, my newer delta puts a slight camfer on the top and I kinda like that for appearance, the camfer isn't deep enough to keep a broom from cleaning it.
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 09:14:10 AM »

Bob, I didn't know you had a sawmill, so you probably already knew everything I mentioned. 

Arthur
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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robertglines1
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 10:23:24 AM »

all wood was quarter saw..was going to run at 20 degree angle across bus..just wanting to try something differant..one piece boards to 14 ft long is no problem  longest would be 102 inches  96 inch inside width plus 6 inch for end angle...is 102 inches two long of run for expansion and contraction? will leave end gap along sides. 3/4 inch board ..have several thousand board ft dried so can select grain..tried one yesterday sue turned out beautiful and came out of plane slick to touch.  will remember slight camfer wood is at 18% rite now.planning on 3 inch width is that good ??or go wider.have many 14 inches wide assumed they would be to hard to keep from warping.will be placed over 1/2 plywood with sheet lead below finished floor..if I would run length ways how long could I go???Bob  a beginner in wood working
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 02:46:23 PM »

If I had access to the lumber you have - I'd do it just the way you are planning - FWIW
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 04:23:21 PM »

Bob, sounds like you have things well in hand, and you have a wood supply that makes many envious.

Length isn't an issue with expansion/contraction, since the movement takes place across the grain - not lengthwise.  You also have the right direction in using narrow boards, to eliminate (actually, reduce), cupping.  The wider the board, the more prone it is to cup - especially since part of the board will likely be flatsawn.  Quartersawn, narrow - the way to go.  The current moisture content sounds high, but I'm used to making furniture in my shop - not something that will, essentially, be out in the general atmosphere (buses breathe, and temperature/humidity will vary when not occupied by humans).

Running at that angle, with movement across the grain, it is possible that some slight movement against the wall will happen - so your planned gap sounds right on.

Think about how you'll anchor the wood floor to the subfloor.  The wood will move, but the plywood subfloor is more stable.  That leaves construction adhesive (liquid nails) out, it's not like laying tile.  Back, perhaps, to the tongue & groove - nail at an angle through the tongue, then slide the next board (groove) up, nail through the tongue of that board.  That way, each board is anchored only at the tongue, so expansion/contraction can happen at the grooved edge.  Since the groove is mated with a tongue (that, itself, is nailed down), the groove is anchored vertically.  

If you do chamfer, my thinking is very, very slight - just enough to disguise minor differences in height from board to board.  You're creating a very subtle shadow line.  Will you like that?  Alternately, would you be able to run a belt sander over the floor (with the grain, up to 220 grit paper - to flatten it out?  Would that even be an issue?  Personally, I'm not sure I'd want to chamfer flooring - think of the wood floors you've seen.  (I do plan to make some cedar tongue & groove for the outside of the house, and I will chamfer that).    

Your profile shows that you're in Evansville, Indiana.  I'm a regular at our local Woodcraft store, where all of the employees and most of the customers are woodworkers - from professional to neophyte.  You might find it interesting to visit the Woodcreaft in Evansville, and get to know some of the folks .  Here, a lot of the discussion and give and take revolves around woodworking ideas.  They've saved me from more than one bad mistake.  

By the way, what kind of wood is it (it'll help me admire the job you're doing from afar)?

Arthur
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 04:30:29 PM by Runcutter » Logged

Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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robertglines1
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 04:39:35 PM »

Red Oak  most logs were 30 inch out of old growth woods (not wind twisted) I also have a lot of poplar that I'm using for frame work..have black walnut drying but is to dark to put next to the cherry cabinets. Wife Judy said! got to keep her happy she does all the upholstery work.               Thanks again to all..I'm still figuring it out..Have hardwood floor nail-er.    will not be up to the pro's but my only cost will be finishing material..
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 05:02:35 PM by robertglines1 » Logged

Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 04:52:53 PM »

Nice - I just saw your PM after I'd posted my wood question.  The red oak should work well with the cherry, and I agree that you don't want to go too dark in the bus.  Dark floor could make it look more cave-like. 

Personally I do like cherry and walnut, and I use maple and walnut together quite a bit.  Several years ago, I made a dinette table for the 4107 out of curly cherry and walnut.  While you don't want to mix too many different woods, in a project or a room you might find places to use the walnut as an accent.   

Now, picture Homer Simpson saying "Hmm, doughnuts", and let's all say together "Hmm, Black Walnut."

Arthur
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 07:25:26 PM »

I have to agree with Runcutter, 18% moisture sounds high.  I am a professional furniture maker and upholster and we like to keep things down to around 7 to 8%.  At 18%, I would be worried about shrinkage causing gaps in the finished flooring. I am laying a pre finished oak floor in my pantry right now and it is running around 6%.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 07:34:57 PM »

thanks: Mike  that's what I need to know.no problem will cut to width and strip for awhile. can be last thing to go in.our humidity has been low and I haven"t checked it in a couple weeks.Haven't got access to kiln.
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2010, 04:54:53 AM »

I think you will find that only prefinished wood flooring is normally chamfered; that prevents damage to the delicate square edge in shipment and handling. Raw lumber is square cut, since it will be sanded in place and edge damage will not then be apparent, and matching the finish for touch-up is not a factor.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 05:21:44 AM »

the mill tool I have doesn't have chamfer.  definitely a learning experience for me: I like it keeps me young..Thanks
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
cody
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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 06:45:40 AM »

Don't feel bad bob, I'm always learning too, as far as chamfering flooring it's been a standard practice for hardwood flooring for a long time, many of the pegged floors of colonial times were chamfered, easing the edges has been a long standing practice in my family, it goes back more generations than I care to think about, I've even got a set of planes from my earliest known ancestor that came from france before the revolution there, included in that set are knives for camfering and a set of knives for doing the relief on the back of hardwood for flooring along with the t&g's, can you imagine how time consuming it was before the advent of power machines to do a floor, he was not only a cabinetmaker but as often was the case back then also a gunmaker, my grandfather had a set of cased dueling pistols that were marked 1760, dominic clische, niccolet, france.  Thats the earliest known that we have found yet in our family.
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2010, 07:26:14 AM »

Bob, a thought on drying your wood.  You mentioned cutting it to width, then letting it finish drying.  Keep in mind that the wood will move as it dries, it'll cup, crook, twist, and warp - as well as change dimension across the grain.  If you don't have the ends painted with wood preserver, (some use latex paint), it'll check and crack on the ends.  Even with that, you'll plan to trim off the ends of the boards to get to good wood.  Thus, you might find it better to let it dry first, then dimension and surface it. 

When I turn bowls out of wet wood, I rough-turn to about 1/2 inch thickness, place in a paper bag for a few months, then come back and turn to the final profile and thickness.  The paper bag slows down the moisture loss to reduce the potential to crack, but the moisture loss will still cause the board to move.  Round is no longer round.  Bottom line, do your final surfacing and dimensioning after the wood dries.  If you go to your local woodworking store, look at some of the turning blocks and billets.  You know they were cut on a table saw, originally rectangular, but as they dried they turned as crooked as .......   

The guideline for drying is one year per inch of thickness, by the way.  Since the wood will not be used inside a house, that is more temperature/humidity controlled, perhaps the moisture content isn't as critical as with furniture (still, 18% is pretty wet.)  You want the wood to stop moving, and to be in equilibrium with its environment.  Thinking of my 4107, in Texas, its environment (heat, and humidity), has a heck of a seasonal swing.

I'm not sure either way on the chamfering.  If the wood is reasonably dry, and you install it in a dry season, it'll expand as humidity increases.  Think of a trip from Arizona to Florida, or even Dallas to Houston.  That could lead to cracking, floor raising, or something else -- the irresistable force.  You solve that by leaving a slight gap (where tongue and groove comes into play).  You can figure out how much by using one of the on-line wood movement calculators.  Mike802 will probably have ideas how finishing both sides (& edges/ends) would reduce or prevent the re-absorbtion of moisture.  The argument, then, would be to put it in somewwhat wet (8-12%?), then let it shrink in width.  I don't think that'll work, because of the cupping/twisting that could take place. 

One other principle is that, if you can't hide something, or prevent something, then show it and feature it.  Kind of like "I meant to do that."  A very slight chamfer would do that.  Think 2-3 passes with a block plane or a smoother, held at 45 degrees.  If the wood moves, and gaps open up, that'll also protect the fragile 90 degree corners previously mentioned.  In reality, you're just easing the edge slightly.   

A book that I picked up, but haven't read yet, is "A Complete Guide to Layout, Installation, & Finishing Wood Flooring".  Charles Peterson, Taunton Press - just out this year (2010).  One of my future projects is redoing the kitchen in the house, top to bottom, the kitchen and my office are candidates for wood flooring.  While writing this, I just skimmed through the book, and it looks very good (as do most Taunton Press books."     

Arthur     
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Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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cody
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2010, 07:44:05 AM »

I have been told in a private message to stay out of discussions where I have no knowledge of the subject, that by winging it I am only confusing people and leading them in wrong directions and that a trip to a local library would serve to enlighten me in regards to wood working, so I'll honor the request and I apologize to those I may have confused by my trying to help, remember, at no time have I claimed to be a cabinet maker or anything other than a sawdust piler.
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2010, 09:06:13 AM »

Huh?  The benefit of discussions is that we all have different thoughts, different approaches.  None of us knows the "right" way for anyone else.  There are darned few "musts" in life.  One of the woodworking magazines recently had an article on combining different woods in a project.  According to that article, I'm wrong for using one of my standard combinations (I forget which one, but it could have been the maple and walnut).  

The only problem, as I see it, is when any of us come off (or try to) as having the definitive answer.  I try not to, and here I'll insert my perpetual apology if any of my wording comes across that way.  In one of my posts trying to find a paint color, I was taken to task for not using the "right" (obscure) nomenclature - in the guise of "you're not smart enough to do a proper internet search without my guidance."  Years ago, I was chided for daring to use CoachNet to have my bus towed for a water leak, and posting my experience with CoachNet.  I participate very little on the "other" board, because of the tone of responses/discussions a few years ago, when I bought the 4107 and started participating in these discussions.  Accordingly, I try to be careful with my wording, but this is a difficult medium.  

Cody, your mentioning chamfers made me wonder about them in flooring.  When it comes time, that gives me something to think about, then make a decision.  No, I won't chamfer the flooring because I was told I must, but I'll consider it as an alternative that I hadn't thought of before.  The entire topic has made me wonder about the appropriate moisture content for this application, in a bus --- as opposed to the podium (maple and walnut, by the way), I recently completed that will always be in a heated, air conditioned, building.

It is the many opinions, if they are backed up by experience, that help us decide on a course of action - for better or worse.  And, we all have different levels of experience, and different ways of doing things.  I'm an amateur woodworker, probably somewhere around the intermediate/craftsman level -- not an expert.  (If you want to talk about bus scheduling, transit operations, come see me.)  As such, I do woodworking, study woodworking, and spend a lot of time learning about woodworking.  There are a heck of a lot of people who know more about it than I do.  On the other hand, that also means I have more knowledge and experience than some others, so I do have something to share. 

By the way, Air Force One light blue (EC-25 so I don't get in trouble again), is about PPG 15253 for the light blue, 14703 for the dark blue.  

Arthur
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 09:21:27 AM by Runcutter » Logged

Arthur Gaudet    Carrollton (Dallas area) Texas 
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cody
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2010, 09:44:09 AM »

I mearly offer suggestions, people can do whatever they want, I make no claims of any kind, I don't claim to be a cabinetmaker, nore do I claim to be a professional furnature maker, a bus converter or anything else, I claim nothing.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2010, 03:00:45 PM »

Cody seen your work ! nice !should say it all..I'm going to do a couple test area's to learn my way..then do final one for bus..the last one I did I used Granite because I was afraid of wood.It worked..so time for a new adventure..good or bad I'm going into this with as many facts and methods as possible in the end rite or wrong it's on me..very knowledgeable people here..thanks..Bob  PS  talked to Artist friend today about a floor insert in a Egg shape to make center piece of floor.acrylics is what he works in..no charge to me he just wants to have a influence on floor.He's sort of excited about it.prob about a 36 inch long 18 inch wide egg shape..might have to change floor pattern to compliment it..outside the box!
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2010, 03:20:33 PM »

Cody, shame....... shame!!! Giving helpful advice and your opinion, on a forum with people asking for it nonetheless!!! Will you never learn?! From now on, Im the only one you can offer advice, caution or your opinion to!

He's all mine guys   Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2010, 03:50:56 PM »

I'm filled with remorse (among other things). I really don't care if anyone likes what I do or not, before I was old enough to walk, I played in sawdust piles, my first chores were sweeping up a shop filled with fine furniture in various stages of construction, I may have learned something over the past lifetime but probably not.  One thing that I can say is that I've walked thru bobs 89 prevo and found the workmanship to be just fine, I see no need for concern as to whether or not he can handle the floor project, in my opinion, bob greatly understates his understanding of how wood works.  My only claim to fame is that I spent 3 summers back in high school doing period furniture restoration at the fort in Mackinaw City, and no, I didn't enjoy white tights and short pants and powdered wigs tho I may rethink that in the future.    http://www.mightymac.org/michilimackinac.htm
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2010, 06:06:41 PM »

Quote
Mike802 will probably have ideas how finishing both sides (& edges/ends) would reduce or prevent the re-absorbtion of moisture.

During my apprentice days, my boss built a table for his showroom as a  demonstration to help explain to clients the concept of wood movement.   Once completed a picture was taken of the finished top, it had three wide boards for the top with bread board ends, each board was pegged in the middle through the bread board to allow for movement.  Within a year there must have been a 1 inch gap between each board, the picture taken earlier giving proof that the boards were once tight together. This simple demonstration has remained with me, and is always in my mind when building furniture. Wood shrinkage is based on a percentage of the boards width and species.  The wider the board, the more dramatic the shrinkage.

The term "wood working expert" always makes me chuckle. The field of wood working is so vast no one can become an expert in all fascists in one lifetime. Sure I am an expert at what I build, but I could not build a violin to save my life, yea, I could build something that looks like a violin, but how would it sound?  Some woodworkers spend their whole career building chairs, its not to difficult to build a good looking chair with nice tight joints, but how long will that chair stay together? That's the tough part and a good place where different moisture contents can come together to form a joint that actually becomes tighter as the wood drys.

No matter what aspect of woodworking a person chooses to study the one thing that remains constant is that of wood moment. Trying to work wood that is not properly dried down is futile. Wood will act, at times unpredictable and do some odd things, with lots of force.

That being said, I do not make my own flooring. I usually buy pre-finished and install it myself.  I am not a flooring expert, but I can give some advice on different finishes that can be used. The same advice I am giving here can also be found in Fine Woodworking Dec. 2010 issue #215, yes the current issue.
The test was performed to see how much moisture was repelled using the different finishes.

Paste wax 17% day 1, 0% after 7 days

Linseed oil 18% day 1, 2% after 7 days, 0% after 14 days

Tung oil 52% day 1, 6% after 7 days, 2% after 14 days

Nitrocellulose Lacquer 79% day 1, 37% after 7 days, 19% after 14 days

Spar varnish 87% day 1, 53% after day 7, 30% after 14 days

Shellac 91% day 1, 64% after day 7, 42% after 14 days

Oil based polyurethane 90% day 1, 64% after day 7, 44% after 14 days

Oil based paint 97% day 1, 86% after 7 days, 80% after 14 days

Should all surfaces be finished?  I am not sure.  I know the pre finished flooring I have laid down in the past is only finished on one side. I have this flooring in my shop, it is heated during the day, but not always at night, unless it is really cold and I cant wait until noon for the shop to heat up, and I have not had any problems. The floors in my home are the old install and then finish type, this flooring only has finish on one side, was laid back in 1875, with no problems, except the old house squeak.  I don't think finishing all sides would hurt anything, but I am unsure how much you would gain, as we can see from the chart above all finishes allow some moisture to be absorbed by the underlying wood.

If I was to take on a project that entailed milling and installing my own hardwood flooring I would seriously consider the book that runcutter suggest.
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cody
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2010, 08:07:29 PM »

MIke, it's good to have an expert onboard, exactly how long has it been since your apprenticeship days? I often wish I had a more extensive library, I am always trying to learn.
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2010, 05:41:53 PM »

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MIke, it's good to have an expert onboard, exactly how long has it been since your apprenticeship days? I often wish I had a more extensive library, I am always trying to learn.

Cody: I have been building furniture professionally now for sixteen years, was strictly into restoring and reupholstering ten years prior to that.  I also love learning new skills and my library is always growing.  That's what I really like about woodworking, there is always something new to learn and add to my work. Lately I have been thinking about adding some carving to my furniture, something simple that makes a statement in a quite way. I am not interested in becoming an expert wood carver, so heavy ornamental carving is not what I am looking for, although I do admire and appreciate the artistic talent that goes into it. 

My apprenticeship was not what one would call a traditional style apprenticeship, as that form of training has all but vanished today. It was more of a life long journey beginning with my neighbor when I was about 7 or 8 years old. He taught me so much and I didn't even realize it at the time.  Latter in high school I took the required shop class's, the only ones I actually excelled in.  After high school, I went to school to learn upholstering.  Eventually, I ended up as a department manager for a fairly large handcrafted furniture maker.  This is where all the pieces came together for me.  My department was responsible for building and upholstering handcrafted upholstered furniture.  Those who figured they would have to teach me how to cut mortise and tenon joints where surprised to find out I already knew, I was surprised to learn that not everybody had a neighbor to teach them the basics of craftsmanship in their garage.  The years I worked there are what I refer to as my apprentice years because it is where everything came together for me, any gaps in my knowledge that held me back from moving ahead into a higher skill set was obtained there.  For guys like us it was heaven, but as they say all good things must come to an end. 
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cody
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2010, 07:03:55 PM »

Pretty much what I figured.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2010, 07:23:57 PM »

This has been a good education for me..I now understand some basics and have learned my wrong assumptions..hope some of it rubbed off.I stand in awl for those with the love of wood and the knowledge. 1st year apprentice  Bob
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2010, 08:50:56 PM »

Earlier this fall I took a walk thru a modern computerized wood working facility, it is so far beyond a shop I marveled at the work being done there then became saddened by the high quality of the machinery when I realized the person running the machine had no clue as to how it became what it was. None of us, my 2 brothers or me took advantage of the skills offered to us by my father and grandfather, we all went off in different directions, I play a little with wood but there had been an unbroken line of master craftsmen in the family that dated back to the 1760's, when I think of that massive pool of knowledge that is gone now that they are both gone, I'm truly saddened at how I've wasted so many opportunities, I've got a trophy wall with degree's hanging in their nice frames that I've never used, I've spent a lifetime or 2 in law enforcement and took my pension and walked away from it, and now I'm not sure what is worthwhile pursuing or what time is left to leave that proverbial mark on society, I drove by a funeral yesterday where the parking lot was overflowing with cars lined up and down the streets, instead of thinking that a truely loved and important person was being morned by so many, I mentioned to jamie that when my time comes I'd expect as many to show up just to make sure I'm really gone.  In this bus world we all do what we want, nobody has written the laws to govern where the couch must go, we're still free to do what others say we cannot do, we are free to learn how many ways a project can't be done in order to find one of the ways it can be done.
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