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Author Topic: NFPA 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles  (Read 6608 times)
FloridaCliff
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 03:44:50 PM »

A law cannot be altered by a variance, a code can be, I didn't think anyone would have the guts to answer my question about variances.

Your confusing the Federal, State, Local and Industry codes and using too broad a brush to explain whats happening.

You can get a variance to a code, but, if you violate the code without it, you have broken the law.

Usually variances on Federal and State codes are for one time uses in declared emergencies or some other special circumstance, the variance is generally for the scope of a project or emergency only and not for perpetuity. Example-we need to cross a protected wetland to get survivors out.

Local codes such as Zoning and Building are what most folks are familiar with.  Variances to these are granted by petition and only when some extenuating circumstance is met.   Zoning-Your lot is not big enough to be granted commercial zoning, they may grant it after notifying all adjacent property and holding a hearing, this would only apply to that piece, this time.   Building-You may want to build a large garage that puts you in the lot line set back, same thing, they notify your neighbors and hold a hearing, if approved, one time variance.

Its easy to see the difference in codes made to keep people alive and safe, such as in the NFPA or NEC and others and why your not going to get a variance on those, and the ones that deal with set backs, zoning, etc. and why you can sometimes get a variance on them.

Cliff  

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1975 GMC  P8M4905A-1160    North Central Florida

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cody
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2010, 03:50:29 PM »

The judge seems to differ, when I read him the responses earlier over the phone he wanted to know what those guys were smoking, I'll side with him over google.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 03:57:18 PM by cody » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2010, 05:34:27 PM »

I am agreeing with Cody and "da judge"....  I was in this same debate years ago on the "old board" and what it all boils down to is that unless there is a government authority that regulates personal bus conversions, codes do not apply and have no legal authority over what you do to your bus.  I could go on but it doesn't matter what you say someone is not going to agree, and we are not in court to argue our case.

--Geoff
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Geoff
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FloridaCliff
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2010, 07:27:13 PM »

I am agreeing with Cody and "da judge"....  I was in this same debate years ago on the "old board" and what it all boils down to is that unless there is a government authority that regulates personal bus conversions, codes do not apply and have no legal authority over what you do to your bus.  I could go on but it doesn't matter what you say someone is not going to agree, and we are not in court to argue our case.

--Geoff

Geoff,

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that on a personal bus conversion that these codes can be enforced or that there is an arm of government actively enforcing them.

Most if not all only apply to commercial converters and RV manufacturers.

I do think it is in our best interest to understand why these codes are in place and to also understand we could be denied protection from liability and assume all risk if it was shown that our equipment/bus did not meet the minimum standards in place when we titled, converted or purchased it.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, just ask "Da Judge"   

Anyone who has dealt with insurance companies understands that we are in an adversarial position when it comes to a claim. Following established and court tested codes only strengthens our case, if needed.

In the end, everyone has to decide for themselves.  I hope you chose wisely

Cliff
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niles500
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2010, 08:42:17 PM »

Maybe it's time to have the "administrative law judge"  call me - I'll straighten him out - FWIW
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cody
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2010, 08:52:48 PM »

Niles, I pmmed Judge Goodmans number to you, it's the 97th district court in L'Anse.
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niles500
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2010, 09:02:32 PM »

Is this the same as the "probate" judge?

http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/500309.html?nav=5006
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cody
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2010, 09:14:26 PM »

Yep, same judge but that article was 2 years ago, since then phil has retired and goodman has replaced another judge, in a small area like this judges often fill in for other judges and perform many duties simply because the court system is not that active, I think we have less than 10 judges, both local and federal in the whole Upper Penninsula, in the courtroom when libby and I got our divorce finalized the only people in the courtroom were Judge Tim Brennan and libby and I and jamie and the court recorder, jamie and the court recorder were on the side gabbing and jamie was being hired at that time to do transcription work and tim came down and sat at our table, he had been my dads attorney for years and I think the divorce hit him harder than us, before he granted the divorce he asked jamie which parent she wanted cusotdy of. In a weeks time there are only about 6 cases heard up here in any particular court room, not much going on. What you guys have to realize is that up here crime is illegal so we don't do that stuff.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 09:35:19 PM by cody » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2010, 09:47:34 PM »

An interesting side note to the article niles posted, it mentions an attorney nancarrow, he just charged himself with embezzlement of between 50K and 100K,  http://www.miningjournal.net/page/content.detail/id/554946.html   he is in private practive and the only attorney in that practice, how or why do you charge yourself with embezzlement.  Here is what I heard on the charges, he is the only lawyer in that private practice and it's already his money but I heard he is in some kind of IRS hot water so he is charging himself with embezzlement which places the money out of the reach of the IRS due to a crime scenerio and he has the option of dropping the charges and walking away free before court, doncha love lawyers? I bet he runs for political office at some point.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 09:54:44 PM by cody » Logged
HighTechRedneck
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2010, 09:51:50 PM »

... how or why do you charge yourself with embezzlement.

To establish his credentials for a run at a political career?
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cody
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2010, 09:55:29 PM »

Thats my guess too mike.
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kyle4501
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2010, 04:48:14 AM »

Cliff,
Sounds like you have first hand experience in dealing with codes in an official or professional capacity - vs. a simple opinion propped up with a phone call.
It may be semantics, but around here, if you find yourself in court for a code violation, codes are law.  Shocked

Just because big brother isn't currently or actively enforcing a law does not mean one is immune from the consequences that may arise from violations. . . .

As has been mentioned, when it comes to questions concerning personal responsibility & liability, do you want to be shown as 'reasonable & prudent' or reckless & careless?


With all those who express contempt for "the code" when building their conversion, is there any wonder why :
- a "professional" conversion brings more $$$ when it comes time to sell when a home made job gets so little?
- some campgrounds have age rules?
- insurance can be difficult to collect on?
- it is difficult to find repair facilities that will work on them?


BTW, I'm not advocating strict adherence to the code, but I am encouraging understanding & following the intent of the code.

Lets be safe & not add to the danger for others who share the road.

PS, there are statutes concerning certain highway safety standards a vehicle must meet. I doubt calling it a privately owned RV will exempt you from those either. . . .
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:52:38 AM by kyle4501 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2010, 05:25:37 AM »

When I had some electrical work done recently I spoke to the master electrician about this (codes related to house electrical, that is, not to RV's) and since he had a new apprentice with him he elaborated a bit.  In his view, codes are fully binding on him, as a licensed electrician he must comply with codes as if there were law per the terms of his license.  But homeowners aren't as fully bound.  You are supposed to get a permit for electrical work and you are supposed to have it inspected, and if you get caught doing something wrong you can be forced to remove or fix the incorrect work, but you can't be charged with breaking a law, just with violating a code.

My view is that codes have the force of law for licensed professionals and manufacturers, but less so for private persons.

Brian
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cody
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2010, 05:26:44 AM »

Kyle, I appreciate your expressing an opinion here on this but I'm not sure if codes would apply unless a person actually had road worthy vehicles, from what I hear your conversions tend to lean more towards the yard ornament variety, I don't know about down your way but up here, salvage yards must be hidden from public view behind a fence. I would tend to think a judicial legal opinion would count for more than a simple opinion.  This is getting boring, all you guys are doing is repeating the same stuff over and over, not even a judge will change your mind, all the information has been provided, it can be verified but then that would destroy your arguements so what is the use or the point, this is done.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 05:33:41 AM by cody » Logged
kyle4501
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2010, 06:52:30 AM »

. . . from what I hear your conversions tend to lean more towards the yard ornament variety, . . .

Another example of you making statements based on assumptions & hearsay, not fact.

I am stating my opinion as just that, my opinion. It is for the reader to determine if it has any merit & it doesn't bother me if someone chooses to disagree. I feel my opinions are capable of standing on their own, I don't need to phone a friend or have the endorsement of a judge to provide credibility.
My goal in this discussion is to encourage critical thought so that there are fewer unpleasant surprises later. The goals are very different if you are planning for 30 days vs. 30 years. Since I wish to leave as much as I can for my kids to use, I feel it prudent to build in such a way that others can use & repair in a sensible manner - this means following accepted standards which is easiest when you follow the intent of the code.

So you can hear it from the source, I don't own anything I would call a conversion. I own lots of cool old crap that has potential. I love & am loved by my wonderful wife & awesome kids. I am enjoying a fantastic life & have friends that I can count on & trust to be there if needed. I have great neighboors who stop by frequently to chat & assist or receive assistance with various projects.
I also enjoy the rewards of responsible actions & preparation. Fortunately, on those few occasions when I had to experience the results of rash behaviour, I was able to learn a few things & my life wasn't ruined, nor was I left bitter.  
 
Concerning code violations, a city can do lots of things if you violate the code, be it grass height, number of RVs allowed [their definition of RV includes boats, camper trailers, motor homes, utility trailers, ATVs, etc & you are allowed only one (1) in my city], or build a fence too high, or improperly wire a house . . . .

A code violation may not be breaking the law, but it can carry significant penalties just the same. Some of those penalties may not be realized until you want to sell. (or the insurance company looks into a claim, or a liability lawyer comes looking for a 'responsible party'.


BTW dan, you aren't the only one who is friends with lawyers & judges.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 06:56:03 AM by kyle4501 » Logged

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