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Author Topic: repower revisit  (Read 4490 times)
bobofthenorth
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2010, 08:31:34 AM »

We had several 466s in our fleet, mostly mechanical.  Set under 200 HP they were dead reliable workhorses that never cost us anything.  We had a couple set well above 300 HP that we used in field application units (high flotation truck conversions).  The best thing about them was, as Clifford & Jim noted, that they are relatively cheap to rebuild.  With that much fueling they will burn valves and collapse pistons regularly. 
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
1981 Prevost 8-92, 10 spd
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Busted Knuckle
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6 Setras, 2 MCIs, and 1 Dina. Just buses ;D


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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2010, 12:25:51 PM »

Don   As i remember  It was a econoline van pushing your truck.  of course my memory is like me getting old and week. Also remember that the truck had a hard time with a setra bus also.
Great trip with some nice friends.
uncle ned

Ned that was a DINA!
And also if you remember it was Don's truck that pulled "Mater" & the MCI out when things got outta control and the MCI pushed "Mater" off the drive sideways! (and didn't even notice both of them was there at once, let alone either one by itself!)
Of course it was just making a payback from "Mater" pulling Don's bus out of the mud! Wink
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 12:31:57 PM »

thank you guys

  I have friends who have added horsepower with good results.  I have been looking at DT466 for the high torque ratings
250 hp @ 800  is factory specs.  I  would think adding 200 hp to standard specs  be ok.

450 hp @ lots of torque should last at least 200.000 miles.  Now you also have the added benefit of cheap parts and cheap rebuilds.
The ability to get parts at more places.

For the big one, Almost every place can work on your engine if you breakdown on the road.

There are enough great minds on the board to find a way to make this work.

It should be said I am not looking for a hotrod but a way to get traveling with less worry.



Lonnie







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1976 4905
RoyJ
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2010, 01:39:06 PM »

250 hp @ 800  is factory specs.  I  would think adding 200 hp to standard specs  be ok.

450 hp @ lots of torque should last at least 200.000 miles.  

That might be pushing it a little too far. I got all sorts of heat from people, when I suggested adding only 50hp to an ISB...

Also, we have to keep in mind power is not simply power. There're very safe ways to making 450hp, and some not so safe ways. I'm no expert on the DT466, but the general rule to tuning diesels are as follow:

- LOTS of air; meaning sufficient size turbo. You want to stay high on the a/f ratio. Remember, a diesel engine can never go too lean.

- If going with large turbo due to above reason, do not fuel hard at low rpm, before turbo spools up. Doing so would make it run rich again, defeating the whole purpose.

- More air means low EGT, the number one reason of burned up diesels is high EGT. More airflow in the exhaust stream also means more heat rejected, and therefore, less demand in the cooling system.

- You want lots of air, but COOL air. Meaning unrestrictive intake, large intercooler with plenty of airflow. Also means sufficient size piping. As airflow increases, so does air flow velocity if piping is too small, which means more pressure drop, and therefore higher boost requirement from turbo, and more heat.

- If a modern engine (ISB/L/M/X) is used, get rid of all EPA treatments. Diesel emissions are still at its infancy; the systems are inefficient. They restrict exhaust flow, creat high combustion temps, and incomplete combustion cycle. In an old bus, anything would be cleaner than the origional 2 stroke, so no bad feelings.


I firmly believe that if these rules are followed, both the ISB and DT466 can live a good life at 400hp, as long as commercial duty cycle is not asked for.
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pete36330
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my mc9 ,,gonna finish it one day ,,




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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 07:10:07 PM »


I'm running a DT 466 in a 97 international skoolie..I went to the international dealer ,,they were not in the least interested in doing anything to it ,,to make more power ,,as a matter of fact they were down right rude about it,,,any alternatives for getting more power?? anyone know how to reprogram the computer?  thanks
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TomC
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2010, 08:46:01 PM »

The electronic DTA466 uses the same injection system as the 3126 and C7 Caterpillar.  So maybe an Caterpillar dealer could turn it up for you.  While the DT466 mechanical is a down right reliable engine (for that matter any Diesel engine with an inline mechanical injection pump).  But when it was turned into an electronic engine, the block was changed so that the front engine cover houses both the coolant and oil with only a small partition with a small gasket separating them-hence a lot of engines do mixing of fluids-which is not good.

Engines I would consider for bus engine swapping- For buses under 33,000lbs- Caterpillar 3126 and C9, Cummins ISB and ISC, Mercedes-Benz 900 series, International DT466 or DT530 DT560.
For the bigger buses over 33,000lbs- Caterpillar C12, C15, C16; Cummins ISL, ISM, ISX; Detroit Series 60, DD13; Mercedes-Benz 4000 Series.  My personal pick would be either the Cat C12 or Cummins ISM since both are a medium sized heavy duty engine. 

Still the cheapest is to turbocharge your 8V-71.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2010, 12:52:28 PM »

 Shocked
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1976 4905
Don Fairchild
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 08:41:52 AM »

Cody,

The harbor craft and the port rules are diffrent rules. The port ruling was brought about by the unions and the new truck manufactures. It is designed to take the older trucks off the road and replace them with trucks 2007 and newer, Their is also a provesion that provides money to hire the illegal's.

As to the two-stroke engiines they will be around for a long time to come. With the harbor craft rules if you use the CCTS parts to make your two-storke comply with the rules then you get life of the boat, but if you repower then every time their is an engine that meets the next higher tier level then you have to go to it.
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Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2010, 02:49:17 PM »

Good news but how many people can work on them.

Don
  what engine would you prefer   8v71 or the 8v92

is the only major difference wet or dry liner and the higher hp of the 8v92.

why I ask is if I learn to work on the 8v71 will the also be good for the 8v92

 The  light weight gmc 4905 That is why I thought about the dt466

I guess I would like to know what the advantage is with 2 strokes
If you think about it making power every other stroke its less efficient then a 4 stroke
Lister  6 to 1  makes power while saving fuel.

Sorry just trying to understand this stuff

Lonnie

« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:05:32 PM by timetogo40 » Logged

1976 4905
bobofthenorth
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 03:56:26 PM »

I guess I would like to know what the advantage is with 2 strokes
If you think about it making power every other stroke its less efficient then a 4 stroke

Dunno Lonnie - I always saw it the other way.  2 stroke cylinder fires once per revolution while a 4 stroke cylinder fires every other revolution.  That makes the 2 stroke seem more efficient to me.  I know when I rode dirt bikes the 2 strokes made more power for the same displacement.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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Lonnie time to go
Lonnie
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2010, 07:49:56 PM »

Bob
 I get that you guys know your stuff.  My mind just won't let me wrap my head around it.  When a engine fires once for every four revolutions I take it as the tire spins four times with each time the engine fires.  Of course the 2 stroke has to fire twice in that time.
This make the four stroke better but I could be wrong

  At least I can give you guys a good laugh at my thinking.

(my name go's here lol)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 08:04:45 PM by timetogo40 » Logged

1976 4905
RoyJ
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2010, 08:13:32 PM »

I guess I would like to know what the advantage is with 2 strokes
If you think about it making power every other stroke its less efficient then a 4 stroke

Dunno Lonnie - I always saw it the other way.  2 stroke cylinder fires once per revolution while a 4 stroke cylinder fires every other revolution.  That makes the 2 stroke seem more efficient to me.  I know when I rode dirt bikes the 2 strokes made more power for the same displacement.


All depends on the definition of "efficiency"; as there can be many when it comes to IC engines.


Hp per displacement (at fixed boost pressure)? 2 stroke for sure.

Volumetric efficiency? 4 stroke

Thermal efficiency? break even, similar combustion conditions

Parastic loss? 2 stroke loose: more power spend cooling itself, due to greater heat rejection, AND lower delta-T

Fuel efficiency? 4 stroke
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2010, 03:20:54 AM »

  Efficiency generally refers to HP to engine weight, HP to physical piston displacement, or fuel efficiency (HP per volume of fuel consumed), for example: hp per per hour/fuel burned per hour (in gallons or pounds). 

  Generally, a small gasoline 2 stroke/2 cycle engine, as used in chain saws, etc., make much greater power per displacement than a 4 stroke, but do so at the cost of higher fuel consumption. Their biggest advantage is weight. To match the power you can get out of a small bore chainsaw, you would need a very large 4 stroke, the weight would be the big issue. This is why you dont see 2 strokes in airplanes except for models and ultralights. For example, my big Stihl chainsaw makes nearly 9 HP, but the whole saw, chain and all, only weighs about 10 pounds. A 9 HP 4 stroke could easily weigh 3 or 4 times as much! I dont know anyone who would like hauling around a 40 pound chainsaw.

  In large industrial diesels, there is not as much disparity. A 6-71 Detroit makes roughly the same kind of power as a comparably sized 4 stroke, and has roughly the same kind of fuel economy. In other words, there is not as great of difference in power efficiency by weight or displacement, nor as much difference in fuel efficiency. However, as technolgy marches forward, it does sound like the computer controlled 4 stroke diesel engines are raising fuel efficiency much higher than just a decade or so ago. Whether that is the computer or the combustion chamber/injection timing is hard to say, possibly modding an older engine couldn make gains.

  There is another cost that is often neglected from engine conversations however, and that is the cost of ownership. The more complex the engine, or the less well developed or lower quality, the more troublesome and expensive it can be to operate it. Breakdowns, especially in something like a Bus, can create wallet emptying tow bills just to get to a place where it can be repaired. The old 2 cycle Detroits may not have been the most fuel efficient, and they certainly have a reputation for loving to consume a lot of oil, but they also have a reputation for getting you back home. A lot of the newer stuff isnt going to be fixed along the side of the road because of some simple problem. When they quit, your most likely calling a wrecker.
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TomC
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2010, 06:11:40 AM »

Let's compare two 6 cylinder Diesels.  One is our favorite 6-71 turbocharged and air to air intercooled-putting out what I would consider the highest power rating you'd want to run safely in a bus with 80 injectors-300hp and 900lb/ft torque.  This engine with turbo weighs in at about 2200lbs.
Compare that to a Mercedes-Benz 4000 series 6 cylinder that also weighs in around 2,200lbs, but can put out 450hp and 1650lb/ft torque.  Much higher power density and fuel efficiency.  You'd probably get about 2 mpg better then the 6-71.
Another comparison-12V-71TA also with 80 injectors.  600hp and 1800lb/ft torque, weighs around 3,500lbs.  The new Detroit DD16 with 600hp and 2050lb/ft torque weighs in around 2950lbs.  In a truck, the 12V-71TA would get about 4.5-5.0 mpg.  The new DD16 is getting 7-8mpg-that's over 50% better fuel mileage!.
Our 2 stroke dinosaurs are exactly that-nearly extinct.  If you want better performance from your 8V-71 turbocharge it.  But the best is just to swap out your 2 stroke engine for a modern 4 stroke engine.  There isn't a 2 stroke engine around (whether it be mechanical or electronic) that can come close to the performance, quietness, fuel efficiency, or clean exhaust of the new breed of 2010 certified clean Diesels.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2010, 06:49:37 AM »

70 plus years for the 2 stroke most versatile engine ever built the modern 4 strokes still use the technology from the 92 series,first electronic engine, first with top piston cooling, first with a air charger the list go on and on.
I was reading where Cummins is going to the V design.
New engines today are like computers obsolete in few years just look at the 4 strokes out of production in such a short time the way things are going diesel engines will be gone and you guys will be driving electric buses lol.
Don't be fooled into thinking parts will be available for a long period time after the production of a certain 4 stroke engine is gone,I see parts a problem on some that just are out of production for 10 years or less.Fwiw I can call and have parts for a 50 year old 2 stroke overnight if Williams doesn't have it in stock but DD is getting pricey since the Germans have it now




good luck
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 06:55:10 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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