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Author Topic: Series 60 Bubbling Coolant  (Read 7374 times)
RichardEntrekin
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« on: November 20, 2010, 05:29:38 AM »

I will post the pics one at a time since they seem to foul up the works.

I first wrote about the this problem in September. The engine was bubbling coolant like a soda fountain. After getting the head off, I do not see an obvious cause.

Here is what I know. Coolant in oil. 1/2 inch of coolant in number 5 when the head is removed. Other cyls are dry. No oil in coolant. Exhaust gas in coolant. Frothy mess on top of valve train when I pulled the valve covers. No apparent loss in power when engine was running. I see some shiny surfaces on the block and the head in the web between five and six that I do not see on the other webs. The head gasket appears to have kept it's seal. The cyl liner is flush to .001 proud on cyl 5. It's about .002 proud on the other cyls. I have taken the head to a DD shop to have it pressure tested. I did not see coolant or damage in the injector tubes, but who knows. One of the mechanics at the shop looked at the head and head gasket and said he did not see anything. I'll post pics for your viewing. The pic of cyl 5 shows etching where the coolant condensed on the cyl wall while sitting since September.

Where would you go from here?
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Richard Entrekin
95 Newell, Detroit S 60
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 05:38:11 AM »

it sounds to me like a cracked cylinder liner in no 5. 

Brian
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RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 06:02:01 AM »

I give up on the pictures.  You can see them on http://www.newellclassic.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10299#post10299Not meaning to hijack the site, but for some reason the system keeps rejecting my pics even though they are sized well below the maximum.

I have looked at the top of the liner. Would a crack be evident, or do I need to pressurize the coolant passages in the block to detect the crack?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 06:03:58 AM by RichardEntrekin » Logged

Richard Entrekin
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 06:09:04 AM »

Richard, one of the significant failure modes of Series 60 engines is excessive seating of the liners in the block.  There is a specification for the liner height.  It is common rebuild practice to machine a lip in the block and install an insert that allows proper seating of the liner.  

If a liner sinks into the block (first hand experience), you will have exhaust soot in the antifreeze and the antifreeze will be pushed out of the overflow tank.  There will be internal damage inside the engine from the heat of the exhaust getting by the head gasket.  I lost a head bolt and there was damage to the cam area.

However, I never got oil in the water or water in the oil.  Thus your symptom might, indeed be a liner problem.  I doubt that it would be cracking, but rather a cavitation (erosion) failure.  That would be one or more small holes in the liner.  Cavitation failures are somewhat common in trucks where the wrong antifreeze (on no Roll Eyes Shocked) has been used.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 06:11:13 AM »

And oh yeah, one more thing. There was a gorgeous blue Iggle parked in the lot of the DD shop in Charleston WV. Any one on here the proud owner?
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Richard Entrekin
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 06:12:15 AM »

How would a cracked cylinder liner create a frothy mess under the valve cover? Wouldn't that almost have to be a cracked head? Richard did they magnaflux the head for cracks? a cooling jacket in the head could allow coolant in the top end but I don't see how coolant could get into that area any other way unless it's coming up from the oilpan and wouldn't it be a frothy mess everywhere then?

You got yourself a pickle here Richard. Here's hoping someone here has seen this before.

Good luck

Rick
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RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 06:13:11 AM »

Jim,

Did you see the head, block, and gasket when you had the receding liner problem? If so, was it evident that exhaust had breached the sealing ring on the gasket?

Thanks for the reply.

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Richard Entrekin
95 Newell, Detroit S 60
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robertglines1
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 06:15:02 AM »

 sometimes when you shine the area up lightly with Emery cloth it will show crack as darker area (line) if not put a little used motor oil on it after shinning and wipe off and the dirty oil will remain in crack or cavitation hole..simple easy test / will not show all cracks.  refering to cyl bore
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 06:17:16 AM by robertglines1 » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 06:16:20 AM »

Richard,

you have to be a member at the newell site to look at your pics. Can anyone here help him get his pics uploaded that would really help anyone trying help you diagnose this

RB
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RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 06:18:06 AM »

Rick,

It will be a week before the shop can test the head.

The mess I referred looked to me like whipped cream of the oil and coolant variety where the cam was rotating against the rockers. There was coolant puddled with the oil in the head. I really think it was just that coolant was in the oil and the rotating parts in the valve train whipped it right up. IF the head were cracked badly enough to push coolant and exhaust gas into the valve cover then the slobber tube would have been spitting a lot a that mess. It was not.

But keep the questions and logic coming. I appreciate the CSI work.
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Richard Entrekin
95 Newell, Detroit S 60
Subaru Outback toad
Huntington WV

Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 06:20:30 AM »

OK, Robert, you win the why didn't I think of that award.

In another life we certified nuclear welds using dye penetrant testing. Your used motor oil is a simple version of that. BRILLIANT !!!
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Richard Entrekin
95 Newell, Detroit S 60
Subaru Outback toad
Huntington WV

Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 06:31:03 AM »

I signed into the forum but can't access the pictures. Was trying to help by posting them! Wink

Send them to me at paul_lawry@yahoo.com and I'll put them up here so we all can see what's going on.

Paul
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 06:35:34 AM »

Richard, we were posting at the same time.  I tried to look at the pictures, but it looks like you need to be a member to see them.

Somehow I read into your original post that you had water in the oil.  I don't see that statement now.  I did not have any oil/water mixing in my engine.

Sounds like the head has been tested and OK.  Everything point to one or more sunken liners.  I will look up the liner height spec. and post it in a few minutes.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 06:40:54 AM »

Richard,worked for Bw at one time also and son works for bw  (engineer) now.blue would be good also if you have some. polish head surface also and ck same way.
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RichardEntrekin
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 06:47:29 AM »

Thanks Paul.
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Richard Entrekin
95 Newell, Detroit S 60
Subaru Outback toad
Huntington WV

Often wrong, but seldom in doubt
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