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Author Topic: Brian's engine swap thread  (Read 3591 times)
bevans6
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« on: November 21, 2010, 11:06:32 AM »

Several people asked for pictures and a running commentary on this, so I thought I would start this thread and update it as I get things done.  So far I found the new engine - a 1980 8V71T that had a factory rebuild at some point, and hasn't been run since the rebuild.  It has the factory preserving oil still in it, it's been sealed well so I am quite hopeful that it turns out OK.

Engine as I got it, just before we loaded it in my pickup.



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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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bevans6
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 11:17:17 AM »

I brought the engine home, truck seemed to like carrying it around, and my neighbour unloaded it for me with his forklift.  I started pulling pieces off that would not be used in the bus install.  It had an industrial twin tube oil cooler that is used to cool the fluid from a transmission or hydraulic brake, it didn't seem to have an oil filter, it had a pre-heat starting aid that sprayed diesel inside the air box under the blower and ignited it with a spark plug, which struck me as just plain scary...  I took all that off, took off the fuel filters, the hoses, the water hoses just so I could get a closer look at what I will have to change.

So far I can see that I need to change the rear engine cover/bell housing, the flywheel, all of the rear ancillaries like the power steering pump, the air compressor, the alternator drive.  Until I take the back of both engines off I won't be able to tell if the drives are there or not.  At the front I need to swap over the water housings, the water plumbing, the fuel filters (probably will install some new type ones).  The front cover where the MCI engine mount attach's is different so that has to be changed, which means taking the water pump off.   I need to renew the front seal, and I need to install the front pulleys.  The oil pan is 7" deep while the oil pan on the bus engine is 4" deep so I will probably change the oil pan.

I need to design and fabricate a side mount for the turbo and have the pipes cross over at the front.  I'll need to fabricate a new blower top for the turbo air feed, and work out an air cleaner setup.

Here is the new engine sitting in my shop.

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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
bevans6
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 11:24:59 AM »

I obviously am going to need to pull the engine out of the bus pretty soon, we are skirting with snow fall this time of year up here so I want to try to get that done next weekend.  Taking some advice I parked the bus with the front tires up on my run-up blocks to get it more level, so it is sitting 6" up right now, and on my concrete pad in front of the garage door to my shop.

I took the basic dimensions for the engine dolly out of the MCI MC9 shop manual and yesterday and today I welded up a dolly.  You can see that I used four pads that will support the lower rail of the engine block and oil pan.  It's made mostly of 4" square, 3/16" wall cold rolled mild steel tube, the casters are rated at 900 lbs each, and the uprights are 2" by 4" 3/16" wall mild steel tube, with an angle cut.  I used my Lincoln 170 amp Mig welder to put it together.  I think I am ready to start taking the engine out next week.

Brian
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 11:30:30 AM by bevans6 » Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
Fred Mc
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 12:07:54 PM »


"it had a pre-heat starting aid that sprayed diesel inside the air box under the blower and ignited it with a spark plug, which struck me as just plain scary."

Not to suggest that you should use this or if its even applicable but I have a construction "tube" heater that works exactly like that. A pump sprays a mist of diesel thorugh a nozzle which is then ignited by a spark plug. Works lie a "hot dam" and generates a "lot" of heat".

Fred
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Bill B /bus
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2010, 04:30:52 PM »

Bevans

Are you going to use intercoolers? Do you have a bypass on the blower?
A friend installed an 8V71 turbo in a 96A3 (replaced a 6V92TA) with intercoolers. He needs more cooling. The original radiators are not big enough. If temps are over 75-80F he gradually goes up to the engine shutdown.
8V71 with 9G75 injectors. A little smoke until the turbo comes up. Not much at all. If you are not looking for it you will miss the smoke.

Just some info
Bill
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 04:42:44 PM »

Brian, I hope you get lucky and don't have to change the end plate to have a gear for the power steering most of those military engines don't have a gear on the right side



good luck
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bevans6
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 06:12:50 PM »

I hope I'm lucky too, I hope to remove the turbo and manifolds tomorrow and take off the drive covers and see what I have to work with.  We will see what we see...  I also have to swap over the jake brakes and buffer switches, I forgot that part earlier.  I have a feeling this engine is going to be coming down to almost a bare block before it starts to go back together.

I'm also rebuilding at BMW 2 liter race engine this winter, I hope...  Nothing else has shown up yet, it could be a fairly quiet winter!

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
bevans6
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 07:54:21 AM »

Well Clifford, you were right of course - there are no accessory drives at all on the  cam gears and there is no gear where the power steering pump goes.  My presumption at this point is that I can transfer whatever is  needed from the old engine since they are both 8V71 of almost exactly the same age.

How deep I have to go to effect this transfer remains to be discovered...  My engine manual implies that I can install the left bank accessory drive retainer but there is no room so I think I will have to remove the rear engine plate to do that.  Which means removing all the gears, etc.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:10:59 AM by bevans6 » Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 08:28:04 AM »

Different end plate Brian and if you have a gear driven alternator still more work ahead for you


good luck
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bevans6
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 08:40:35 AM »

My manual shows that the 'carrier', if you will, for that left hand accessory drive bolts to the back plate from the rear, and there is a cover on my "new engine" backplate I have covering up the hole that you would expect to be there for the 'carrier' to stick through.  But if I do need to change the back plate would i be correct in assuming that the one on the bus engine will work?

My alternator is belt drive off the right hand cam gear location.  There is mention in the manual of a step up gear for coach alternators, but I think that is the gear driven alternator.

Brian
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 08:50:27 AM by bevans6 » Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2010, 08:50:20 AM »

The back plate will work when you get in there you will see the back plate has a recess for the gear buy you some wire wheels for the grinder those gaskets are a bitch to remove lol, I would still buy a complete set of gaskets if I were you DD is outrageous on the price for individual gaskets

good luck
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bevans6
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2010, 08:52:57 AM »

My plan is to buy the complete gasket set, and all the seals as well, and replace everything I can get at.  Certainly all the exterior oil seals, like the front seal, the crank seal behind the flywheel, the drive seal for the alternator, the water pump seals.  I'm not expecting this to be a weekend project...   Cheesy

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 09:06:30 AM »

The front ,rear seal,waterpump seals and valve cover gaskets will not come in the gasket set Brian those are a separate item to many to choose from  139 bucks for a over haul gasket set at www.dieselpro.com the complete set is the way to go it will have the end plate gaskets it will cost you around 200 bucks


good luck
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 09:11:59 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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bevans6
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 09:21:18 AM »

Well, I just read that to pull the back plate off I need to get the cam gears out of the way, which means I have to remove the cams and the manual says i have to remove the cylinder heads to remove the cams...  That is more work than I was expecting for sure.  Gonna have to think about this for a little bit.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 09:28:14 AM »

Pull the gears off the cams not that hard just matching the timing marks going back is a little of a pain 


good luck
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 05:19:15 PM »

When cleaning up surfaces, do NOT use Scotch Brite disks or pads.   They have carbide in them and if they are not cleaned up completely, you may have a bad day.   Some car engines failed shortly have rebuilds because of this problem.

BTW, I exchanged an 8V71 with a truck 8V71T with similar hurdles as you.   You are on the right track though.

Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 11:15:45 PM »

To me, that low profile rear mounting of the turbo looks to be just the setup for the 5.  But-you're already talking of a side mounted turbo-too bad you couldn't keep the turbo where it is-even if you had to extend a bit to clear the accessaries.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2010, 04:49:16 AM »

Brian, You can raise the blower deck as there is plenty of room to go up. My 5C had a 671 changed to a 692t. The deck was raised to accomodate the engine. Let me know if you want a pic
Thanks
Chris
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bevans6
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 05:13:37 AM »

I'm trying to be as non-invasive as possible with the swap.  A local friend Carl has installed an 8V71T in his 5C with a front/top mounted turbo, and he did that by doing away with the fan gearbox and using a hydraulic fan motor.  I could probably do that.  The problem with the rear mounted turbo is that it is low enough but it completely obscures all of the accessory mounting locations, so I would have to find other ways to drive the power steering pump, the air compressor and the alternator.  Of the options, I really think that putting the turbo on the side is going to be about the easiest.  There is lots of room, I get a straight shot down to the stock muffler location for the exhaust, the air intake will be easy - I may in fact retain the existing blower cover and do a little S-bend for the air intake hose.

I build custom racing headers so I don't see a problem with the manifold fabrication.  I'll just buy in some bends and use the existing flanges to the cast iron manifolds.  I will probably make the air plumbing out of aluminium bends and join with hose sections.  I think the main disadvantage of the side mounting is that the turbo lag will be greater so the engine will be less responsive than a mid-mount with shorter  and more equal exhaust plumbing, and it will be hard to get into the valve cover to check that without taking the turbo plumbing and maybe even the turbo off.   So - I'm still thinking about it.  Today I've been thinking about a low front mounted turbo and modify the doors on the bus for clearance.

Chris, I really would appreciate seeing pictures of your installation, you could post them here or email them to me.

Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2010, 07:17:04 AM »

Brian
Put the turbo where it fits best, Use good mandrel bent heavy gauge bends, No leaks !
Good oil return to the pan/block . That DD 2 stroke moves a lot of air , will not know a
foot or two added to exhaust or intake piping
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2010, 07:55:47 AM »

On a side mounted turbo you can get faster response, spool up and boost pressure if you change the big 71 series manifolds and pipes over to the smaller 92 series manifolds and pipes fwiw  



good luck
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 10:06:09 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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bevans6
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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2010, 01:28:40 PM »

So, an update on this project, finally...  I am here to testify that one person who's never done it before, working alone with hand tools can indeed pull the engine/tranny on an MC-5C, but it is not what I would call relaxing entertainment...  That said, it's done...

The hardest bits were the plumbing - there is more of it that I would have ever imagined and it goes everywhere seemingly randomly, so tomorrow I am going to draw it all out.  Ain't no way I would figure that out going back in five months from now.  And the driveshaft.  Yes, it's only like 8 bolts, but they are awkward to get to if you need to put any leverage on them, the parking brakes are set on the bus and I had no way to put air in to release them so I couldn't rotate the drive-shaft to get at the nuts you can't reach,  and one was frozen in so hard I had to heat the flanges and drift it out with a hammer.  All in all, including cursing, getting the rear wheels off so I could reach the flange, finding my portable torch set, finding the lighter, going inside to warm up (below freezing and snow flurries) - that part of the job took over 4 hours all by itself.

Other things of note - the dolly was made to the dimensions in the MC-9 manual and it's about an inch and a half too long for the MC-5 to do it right and easy.  I had the bus jacked up at the proper body jacking points and the rear legs of the dolly hit the jack just a bit before I had picked up the rear of the engine block with the rear uprights.  I actually had it almost at the balance point and had to tie the front of the block down to the dolly or it rocked a bit.  Now it's out, getting it in the shop over a 2" step in the pavement was just some routine rigging.  But I can tell you for free that your 8V71 with your Spicer gearbox does not roll with ease even on your brand new 1000 lb rubber tired casters.  Making it roll somewhere that you want it to go is  a job for about four 240 lb men, not one...

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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2010, 03:20:43 PM »

Hey Brian,

If you decide to stick with the belt driven stock cooling fan system make sure you put the smaller diameter pulley on the top gearbox. The one you have could have the deeper grooves with the larger overall diameter it is hard to tell from the pics.

Sobering post for anyone who wants to do a military or truck motor repower. It is alot of work and alot of modification . You better know or be a really good welder and you better have extensive mechanical skills if you're gonna try it. I learned that last year when I bought the truck motor last year that just some of the changes were: motor mounts, water pumps, pulleys, oil coolers, bellhousings, flywheels, and just the backplate was $700 and took experienced DD mechanics a day to remove and a day to reinstall.

It is obvious that Brian's experience and shop are going to help him do this right but it is a sobering reminder this kind of repower is not for the faint of heart. Heck, pulling a motor that heavy is not for the faint of heart. We had the front end of a huge dump truck a foot and a half off the ground to separate the motor from the tranny. scary stuff.

Good luck Brian and keep us informed.

Rick
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2010, 05:50:57 PM »

Yep Rick you got to love what MCI did on the back of the Detroits I do not like that change over lol

good luck
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2010, 08:44:56 PM »

I can appreciate the amount of work having pulled my engine by myself.  The dolly I built looks somewhat different and I copied the plans in the manual as well.
However, I had to drive the bus up on ramps to get it high enough to get the dolly underneath.
Having a pit and a tractor.......priceless.
 Good job..
 Iver
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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2010, 09:28:29 AM »

Looks to me that if you eliminated that big 50DN alternator from the rear of the engine (a big pain to change if it goes out-it weighs 100lbs!) you could use that rear mounted turbo from your replacment engine.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2010, 11:30:35 AM »

The turbo on the rear mount is about exactly where the air compressor goes, unfortunately.  I would have to lose the DN50, and find a new home for the compressor and the power steering pump.  And cut a hole in the floor, the turbo would hit but only by a couple of inches.  The only way I can think of that doesn't include cutting bodywork is the side mount.  Even then the DN50 belt drive is going to be in the way.  There just isn't a lot of room above the back of the engine in the MC-5C, I had to take the governor off the air compressor or it would have hit when I lifted the engine to slide it out.  There is literally a half inch of clearance over the compressor to the floor of the bus.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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