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Author Topic: Can an MCI E-4500 be fitted with a Cummins ISX?  (Read 6415 times)
morefire
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« on: November 29, 2010, 11:41:22 AM »

Hey Guys,  quick question.  I searched and didnt find the answer I was looking for. 
I want to know if I can fit a Cummins ISX engine into a 1999 MCI 4500 coach.
Can it be done? has anyone done it on here with pic's?

Thanks
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David G
Toronto, Ontario
2009 Bluebird 40' Coach
Cummins ISX-675HP!!
CrabbyMilton
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 01:07:46 PM »

Not offering mechancal advise here but, the 2011 MCI E4500 and all of the MCI's will have this engine(ISX) as standard equipment so it's not out of the relm of possiblities.
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 01:40:58 PM »

The ISX is a smaller engine than the series 60, but why would you want to make the change?
Jack
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 02:18:11 PM »

The ISX is a smaller engine than the series 60, but why would you want to make the change?
Jack

An ISX15 600hp is smaller than a series 60?

What about the engine cradle, and being able to bolt it in?
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David G
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2009 Bluebird 40' Coach
Cummins ISX-675HP!!
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 03:25:11 PM »

Go for it you might be the first! why not..wiring may be a minor problem. always easy to go back with what you took out..Keep records of your transformation.. Sonny put a cat in a eagle! progress is always great.
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 04:17:34 PM »

I just happen to have a spare 60 series from a MCI 4500. If interested drop me a note.
JimH
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Started with nothing - still have most of it left!
1963 Eagle 01 with Detroit 60 series done (Gone-sold!)
MCI EL3 in progress. raised roof & Slides
2009 Revolution 42 Sticks and staple
Summer - Yankton, South Dakota
Winter- Port St Lucie, Florida
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2010, 05:11:38 PM »

Not offering mechancal advise here but, the 2011 MCI E4500 and all of the MCI's will have this engine(ISX) as standard equipment so it's not out of the relm of possiblities.

IIRC, that's the new 11.9L ISX isn't it? If it is, I also assume it's physically smaller than the 15L version?

I'd say go for it. Most modern big blocks are very similar in overall size. The electronics part may be a little tricky, especially if the ISX doesn't have its own transmission. Once done though, you can safely tune an ISX to 650hp recreational rating, preferrably with an EGR delete (99 engine didn't need them). It's be an absolute powerhouse that's for sure!
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 04:03:31 AM »

I just happen to have a spare 60 series from a MCI 4500. If interested drop me a note.
JimH

Thanks, but the Coach that I am looking at has a perfectly fine series 60 in it,  I just have an option to acquire an ISX600 and would love to install it in the coach.   If I were to do it, I would sell off the Series 60 that is in there now. 
I am just a bit of an engine head, and if I am going to customize a coach, I'm starting with the engine Grin
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David G
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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 06:14:12 AM »

"I am just a bit of an engine head, and if I am going to customize a coach, I'm starting with the engine Grin"

More power, more power! Just like our hero Tim the tool man Taylor says.
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 06:49:16 AM »

"I am just a bit of an engine head, and if I am going to customize a coach, I'm starting with the engine Grin"

More power, more power! Just like our hero Tim the tool man Taylor says.
Grin  BK  Grin

All my friends call me that Embarrassed


But I think it would be an awesome coach with an opened up ISX600 installed.  Re programed to bypass all the emissions stuff and run an opened up muffler, and reset it to 650hp Grin


I am thinking real hard on this one....I feel like getting it done.  I just need to find someone who could wire up this engine in a MCI coach.  That's my biggest concern.
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David G
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 07:36:29 AM »

Wow, I thought I was crazy!!! Shocked Grin

The other piece of the puzzle you need to look at is the transmission.  I assume it is a World and that it communicates with the Series 60 via J1939.  If that is the case, you will need to make sure your ISX has the J1939 activated and that it is set for the transmission.  With a Series 60, the factory has to activate the J1939 if it is not already activated.  Changing the transmission setting can be done with a ProLink type unit.  Not a big deal, but it is these kinds of details that you will need to deal with.

The physical mounting of the engine is just a matter of fabrication.  Fabricating the wire cable may not be all that bad.  You might even be able to use the Series 60 cable wires and reconnect them to the Cummins ECM.  Depending on the DDEC series, I have the wire numbers defined on my project pages and you could get the same information for the ISX.

The engine mounts are the simple part.  All of the plumbing connections will require a lot of fabrication.  You are ahead of the game in that the bus has a charge air cooler and the radiator is probably sized correctly (not much of an issue with 4 strokes). Air cleaner should also be properly sized, but the plumbing will need to be fabricated. Not sure what all you will get into with all of the accessories (belt drive for the fan, alternator drive, PS drive, engine AC drive, etc.). 

Your dash gauges may be driven by the J108 data bus, or may use separate sensors.  If they are separate sensor type, you will need to transfer them - again, not a big deal.

All things considered, this conversion is consideribly easier than one from a mechanical two-stroke, but it really begs the question:  WHY?Huh

The conversion will require at least 100 hours and you will only be gaining bragging rights and perhaps a few less minutes up the big hill. 

If you do it, be sure to document it here.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 07:37:30 AM »

Why not install a souped up 14 liter Series 60 if you want more power?  It would be a lot less work.  

I envy somebody who is in the position to buy a relatively modern coach and then install a totally different engine.  I would love put a larger Series 60 in my bus, but what I have works so I can't justify it.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 08:02:29 AM »

Why not install a souped up 14 liter Series 60 if you want more power?  It would be a lot less work.  

I envy somebody who is in the position to buy a relatively modern coach and then install a totally different engine.  I would love put a larger Series 60 in my bus, but what I have works so I can't justify it.

I am just a fan of the Cummins over the Detroit.   not saying anything bad about the Detroit.... I just much rather have a cummins ISX.
Honestly I rather have a 600hp CAT C15, but its the cummins that I have access to, and I cant afford to go buy a brand new CAT.

Im just weird I guess.  The wife is more concerned what the interior would look like, and what colour the cabinets would look like.......... mean while,  I would sleep on an air mattress,  I just care what engine i have in it and the rest of the mechanics.  Grin
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David G
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 08:17:46 AM »

ISX Cummins is a big block Diesel-like the Caterpillar 3406, C15 and C16, along with the Series 60 Detroit and new DD15 and DD16.  It has been proven over and over again that the Detroit Series 60 will get better fuel mileage then the ISX.  Now with the DD15 and DD16 with turbo compounding (second gear driven turbo that returns up to 50hp back to the engine), the Detroit DD series is again the top fuel mileage champ-even with all the smog devices.  In fact, the DD15 is returning the same fuel mileage as the pre 1998 Series 60-which was the mileage champ then.
The new Cummins 11.9 ISX is a redesigned ISM-same basic size, but 350lbs heavier.

The ONLY advantage to a Cummins is that it is the only independent engine manufacturer left.  This would facilitate being able to have most any truck dealer work on the engine.  Currently Freightliner, Western Star, Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo and Mack offer Cummins.  International, which has shot itself in the foot, only offers their Maxxforce engines that are based on the excellent MAN engine, but International has mucked it up by installing twin turbos, twin EGR coolers, three radiators to stay away from Urea exhaust fluid.  By 2012, International will change their system.  Just as a note-J.B. Hunt took delivery of 150 Internationals.  They were able to get about 35 on the road-the rest wouldn't run right.  Hunt made International take back the other trucks.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 09:25:40 AM »

Im aware that the detroits are a little better on fuel...... but I want an ISX
(since I cant get a new C15)
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David G
Toronto, Ontario
2009 Bluebird 40' Coach
Cummins ISX-675HP!!
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2010, 09:45:32 AM »

The choice is yours and you have to do what works and what you want in the long term. I do however hope you do go with the CUMMINS. I own stock in them. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2010, 09:53:50 AM »

The choice is yours and you have to do what works and what you want in the long term. I do however hope you do go with the CUMMINS. I own stock in them. Smiley

Nice!  So I can get the new 2010-2011 version for a smoking deal through you? Grin Grin
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David G
Toronto, Ontario
2009 Bluebird 40' Coach
Cummins ISX-675HP!!
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2010, 10:14:13 AM »

Sure if I get a bonus out of it but I can't hold my breath that long. Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2010, 10:51:05 AM »

As I step back from this for a minute, I reflect on several conversations I had with folks who had done engine conversions. 

Many years ago Sonnie Gray and I started doing engine conversion seminars at Jack's party (finally led up to the three part article in the magazine).  In preparation for those seminars and at the various rallies, I would make a point to talk to everybody I could find that had done an engine conversion from a two-stroke to a four-stroke (as well as upgrading two-strokes).  I asked several folks why they did it and got a couple of:  "because someone said it could not be done!!!".  I love it!!!

That is not quite the case here, but it is a case where a fellow wants to do it "his way" - even if it defies logic Grin

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2010, 11:26:00 AM »

I believe that, for most of us, just owning the bus defies logic  Wink

Bob
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2010, 11:33:16 AM »

Bottom line,  I really just want to know if there is enough space in the engine bay to actually fit a 15liter ISX engine.  I don't want to purchase both the bus and engine if I cant fit it in there without redesigning the chassis.  If it can physically fit, I'll find someone to do the work.  Wink

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David G
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2010, 11:53:12 AM »

morefire (wish I could address you by name, but no signature), be very careful about who you have do the work if you proceed.  There are a ton of hungry mechanics out there that will tell you they can do the work because they stuck a Cadillac engine in an old Ford.  Not the same animal by any huge stretch of the imagination.  Maybe one in a hundred of those folks could do the job correctly.  

There will be a lot of fabrication and electronic work to be done.  At the very least, the person should have (and be familiar with) with a ProLink or other form of HD diesel electronic diagnostic equipment.  They will need to have, or fabricate, a very large dolly to remove and install the engine (or a fork lift).  They will need all of the huge tools that diesel mechanics have.  Get a reference if you don't know the person's capabilities (personal skills and equipment).  Be prepared to pay $100 per hour if a shop is involved to cover the labor and overhead.  I would guess that you will have to pay $15K to get the job done correctly.

If you do this project, be very careful of the engine mounts.  I used the truck mounts and I have some vibration.  Trucks don't care much, because they have big frames and isolated cabs.  Buses do care.  I would try to find a way to modify the MCI/Series 60 mounts.

As far as the engine fitting, I think others have said that all of the big four-strokes are roughly the same size. Most of the engine manufacturers supply dimension data, or you could visit a used truck lot and find trucks with both engines and compare the dimensions.  I don't think width will be an issue.  I would guess length and height (probably the most critical dimension) will not be an issue.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2010, 12:23:31 PM »

If you need help Sonnie Gray is installing a ISX and a auto 12 speed in a Eagle for a friend of ours right now and I am sure there is more room for the ISX in the 4500 than a Eagle with a drop box and a boggie axle with a 6v92 ,btw he wanted a C-15 also but the ISX was a better buy for him.
Bruce installed a ISX in a older MCI but he added a 1 foot or better to rear on his  

good luck
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2010, 12:56:06 PM »

If you need help Sonnie Gray is installing a ISX and a auto 12 speed in a Eagle for a friend of ours right now and I am sure there is more room for the ISX in the 4500 than a Eagle with a drop box and a boggie axle with a 6v92 ,btw he wanted a C-15 also but the ISX was a better buy for him.
Bruce installed a ISX in a older MCI but he added a 1 foot or better to rear on his  

good luck

well, if it can fit in an Eagle, it can fit in an MCI.

I am also woking on a 2009 BLUEBIRD Bus that came from the coachworks bankrupcy auction.  I have a thread going over on "Wanderlodge Owners Group".  Good bunch of guys over there.   I am trying to sort out some paper work issues with that bus...if I dont get  it sorted out,  I am switching to the MCI 4500 with an ISX600 project.
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David G
Toronto, Ontario
2009 Bluebird 40' Coach
Cummins ISX-675HP!!
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2010, 08:03:28 PM »

David -

You're in luck!

Buswarrior is in your neighborhood, a wealth of operational knowledge literally at your back door!

Perhaps an invite to share a Molson in front of a roaring fireplace can answer lots of your questions?

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2010, 09:00:55 PM »

Quote from: Busted Knuckle
More power, more power! Just like our hero Tim the tool man Taylor says.
Grin  BK  Grin


Quote from: morefire
All my friends call me that Embarrassed


But I think it would be an awesome coach with an opened up ISX600 installed.  Re programed to bypass all the emissions stuff and run an opened up muffler, and reset it to 650hp Grin


Shoot why stop @ 650? Let's go 850!
Or better yet get ahold of these guys - http://www.pittsburghpower.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=4&sort=4a&filter_id=24

They been making sic horsepower cumaparts for yrs! Wink (1250-1650 hp street-able coal haulers!)
Grin  BK  Grin
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2010, 07:13:39 AM »

FWIW I have a friend very high up in the food chain at Southern Plains Cummins and he said not to take that engine above 570 hp or you will regret it


good luck
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2010, 07:16:35 AM »

If you like the Caterpillar engine so much, why don't you run it?  The C12 is an excellent engine available up to 500hp and 1650lb/ft torque for motorhomes.  The C12 is much smaller then the ISX and weighs about 700lbs less.  Any Caterpillar engine that is 2006 or older is good.  They ran into problems with their ACERT technology and twin turbos after 2007 engines.  If you want a big block, the 3406B or C mechanical are, in my opinion, the most reliable engines ever made.  The 3406E, C15, C16 are good too-but physically very large.  ALL Caterpillar engines that were used in trucks are still in production.  One of the considerations on my 1985 Kenworth conversion was the availability of engine parts for my 3406B mechanical jacket water aftercooled engine.  Caterpillar is still making the 3406C which is almost exactly the same engine for generator, pump and compressor applications.  Truck service centers are going to continue to service Caterpillars for a long time since there are still thousands running in trucks and buses.  

Trying to run a 2010 engine is going to be a real challenge.  Not only do you have to have all the electronics, but the exhaust after treatment has to be used-the engine will not run without it.  Except for International Maxxforce engines, all others are using a catalytic converter, particulate trap, and DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid made from Urea and water) reaction chamber.  Freightliner has an all in one unit that uses twin cats and traps, and twin DEF reaction chambers in what looks like a rectangular fuel tank-very compact.  If you do go this route-probably have to find a wrecked truck with all components still in tacked to use.  Not an easy way to go.  Also-will have to find room for a 13 gallon DEF tank.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2010, 11:02:59 AM »

Why mess around with an ISX?  Here is a real engine!  3424 hp

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/30/video-ever-seen-a-v24-diesel-rock-the-dyno/#continued
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2010, 01:11:08 PM »



Did I see Don Fairfield hiding in the corner looking on.  Bet he will have to top this soon.

uncle ned

we will alcohol injection in stead of nitrous
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2010, 01:50:08 PM »



Did I see Don Fairfield hiding in the corner looking on.  Bet he will have to top this soon.

uncle ned

we will alcohol injection in stead of nitrous

Naw just use some of that good ole mountain dew! Wink
Grin  BK  Grin
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2010, 03:25:26 PM »

mmmmmmm more power mmmmmmm

I'm here in the Big Smoke.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2010, 10:36:59 PM »

Why mess around with an ISX?  Here is a real engine!  3424 hp

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/30/video-ever-seen-a-v24-diesel-rock-the-dyno/#continued


Just the power plant for this beastie

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.streetlegaltv.com/forum/attachments/2886d1250292570-peterbilt2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.streetlegaltv.com/forum/peterbilt-hot-rod-1-000-ft-3451.html&h=850&w=1280&sz=370&tbnid=DsW0hKlTbNZ-xM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpeterbilt%2Bhot%2Brod&zoom=1&q=peterbilt+hot+rod&hl=en&usg=__woSkdE5SMTz53WnZ-grkZ_ke41k=&sa=X&ei=tTz3TJXKJo72swPWv6CaAg&ved=0CB4Q9QEwAg
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« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2010, 11:13:19 PM »

Without knowing anything about what the job will entail, I can tell you without doubt, it can be done.  Given unlimited time, money and determination, you could mount that engine on a motorcycle.  You might have trouble straddling it though.
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