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Author Topic: No Start- Of course... Any suggestions  (Read 3066 times)
Tully Lee
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« on: December 02, 2010, 01:24:34 PM »

So I  have had my bus parked outside the last couple of weeks.  Have started it every other day to keep batteries and all up to charge.

Go out today and start-  batteries run down.  Put the batteries on a charger and after an hour go out.  Cranking and bus finally starts.  It is a little rough idle for about a minute then smooths out.  I go into
my office to let it warm up.  Go out 10 minutes latter and it is not running?  So, I go to start.  Batteries are a little too low.  I put it on 200 AMP Jump start and it spins just fine fut will not fire up not. 

Could the fuel be frozen and this is the reason for a no start?  It is around between 20-30 degrees today.

What would you suggest.  It is a 1990 Prevost with a Detroit Silver Twin Turbo.

Thanks,

Tully
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robertglines1
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 01:29:40 PM »

if you do not have 12 volt minimun to ddec it will not run..check battery voltage individually .don't remember which battery 12 volt tap comes off of. were you on fast idle?
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
Tully Lee
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2010, 01:35:03 PM »

Never had a chance to put it on fast idle.  When I came out she was not running.  I have a 12/24 volt sytem with four chassis batteries.  Not certain if they are in series or parallel.... but if the bus was running would the alt. not have kicked in to start charging right away?

Sounds almost like there is no spark (fire)... just spinning with not start up.

Tully
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Tully Lee
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2010, 01:38:16 PM »

Just tried to crank it over again.  It spins real free the engine but just is not catching.  If the fuel has frozen would and could this be the problem?  If it is, what type of treatment could I put in the fuel?

Tully
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Tully Lee
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 01:44:23 PM »

Is it ok to press the gas pedal all the way down while cranking? I know on fuel injected engines you are not suppose to do that?

Tully
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robertglines1
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 01:46:13 PM »

there is a seperate breaker for 12 volt feed to DDEC II  or some actually had a inline fuse close to batt connection...ck next to 12 volt switch in rear bay close to vanner and ck on vanner for reset.  make sure rear start switch is in correct position.I'll get bk out and ck to see if I can find exact locations.  Bob
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 01:47:46 PM »

I am certainly no expert, but I don't think you should have fuel problems @ 30 deg.  I'm not sure about prevo's but on mci's the alt will not charge until the air is built up in the system and the low air alarm silences.  fwiw, I never let my engine idle.  I either have my foot on the pedal or the high idle is on.  I will hold it at a fast idle when i fire it up until there is enough air to trigger the fast idle plunger.  just my way.  DD don't like to idle.  Try removing the power from the ddec for a few minutes and see if it resets.  Are you getting any smoke while cranking the engine?  If so then you are getting fuel.
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Tully Lee
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 02:00:31 PM »

Just had it start for like five seconds and then shut down again.  So I am a little confused on this one.

Tully
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robertglines1
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2010, 02:02:32 PM »

are your batteries in the rh engine compartment? 3 serries 31's
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
robertglines1
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2010, 02:05:56 PM »

ck water level in tank-to low will start and shut off.    happen to me.   Bob 
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
Tully Lee
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2010, 02:13:29 PM »

I have (4) batteries in the back passenger side of the bus.  Getting a little to cold and a little frustrated so I will re-address first thing A.M.

Thanks so much for the fast replies.

Tully
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robertglines1
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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 02:18:41 PM »

should be 6 breakers thru frame right rear lug bay  front two are 12 volt. do ck water level in tank  sometimes the simple things cause major aggravation  Bob
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
Tully Lee
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 02:25:23 PM »

When you say water level you meaning the antifreez level?  Correct?

Thanks,

Tully
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robertglines1
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2010, 02:29:14 PM »

yes in the tank it has a low coolant sensor that will shut you down or won"t let you start/will turn over but not start.If in doubt dump a little in . I know the sight glass give a false look when they get old.  Bob
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
Tully Lee
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2010, 02:35:56 PM »

First thing in the A.M. will check these items out and give an update.  Great website!  Busnuts stick together and that I dig...

Tully
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stevet903
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2010, 02:57:16 PM »

Here's a couple of things to check:

Turn the key on, does the Check Engine and Stop engine light come on for about 10 seconds and then go off?  When it stops, is the stop engine light on?  If they come on and go out, it means that you have power to the DDEC system.  If the lights stay on for 20 or 30 sec and then go out, you have a historical code.   If the stop engine light is on when it stops, the DDEC system has shut it down.  There are three things that will shut you down -
Code 43, Low Coolant, Code 44, Oil or coolant high temperature,  or code 45, Low oil pressure.

Why do your batteries go dead in a couple of days?  Do you have a 12V and a 24V shutoff above the batteries?  On mine, when the switches are off the batteries will last for a couple of weeks.  On your bus, the DDEC system is 12V, most of the rest of the bus is 24V.  There is a Vanner equalizer to keep the 12V section of the batteries charged properly.  You may have a circuit breaker on your Vanner that has popped and allowed the 12V section do become discharged enough to shut down the DDEC computer.  I believe that this happens around 10V.  You could also have a bad battery that is causing the issues. 

Steve
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gumpy
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 04:07:14 PM »

Sounds suspiciously like you left the rear start switch in the off position. Not sure if prevost's have that, but that's exactly what an MCI does when you forget to put it back in the run position.
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Craig Shepard
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luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2010, 04:24:42 PM »

I for one always thought the MCI and other 24 volts buses that used a 12V DDEC system was just plain dumb and stupid you guys know of a reason for using 12v instead of 24V? all the heavy equipment with DD and the 24 volt starting use the 24V DDEC I never understood why buses had the 12V ? just more problems   


good luck
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RickB
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2010, 04:44:45 PM »

Oh for the love of Jesus let the "twin turbo" in your earlier post be a typo. If you have an 8v92 with twin turbo's first question is: How did you fit two turbo's and all their respective plumbing in the engine compartment and 2nd question is: Just how many %$#%%^$$ Horsepower are you running?

Sorry for the out burst but I just felt some serious turbo envy!!!

Do you have a block heater? If not, get one and put it in.These things don't like to start below freezing and you only need to plug it in the night before you start it. Also, do you have a port to throw a little ether in their to see if you can get it running with that? If it runs just long enough to burn the ether you may have a fuel issue. It certainly isn't cold enough to gel Diesel #2 but it might be for #1.

Good luck and from the temps you described I would really look into a block heater if I were you.

RB
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Tully Lee
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2010, 05:24:22 PM »

You fine folks are provided me with a ton of good info.  Looking forward to trying some ideas out.  I know that last time it started and ran for about 5 seconds or so. However, I had to have the key cranked and I know that was not good for the starter.  Don't want to end up burning my starter up. 

I have two swtiches for the 12 & 24 volt.  Both were on when I tried starting the bus. I do keep them in the off position when not in use.  So I know for sure that is not going to be an issue.

I hope is is a simple as the water being a little low.  Hope it is just down below the sensor to prevent
the bus from starting.  Going to try that first.

The nice thing is that the bus is parked in front of my office so I can take pic's as needed and post
so I can get some kind of resolution on this.

Thanks Again,

Tully
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gumpy
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2010, 06:23:08 PM »


I have two swtiches for the 12 & 24 volt.  Both were on when I tried starting the bus. I do keep them in the off position when not in use.  So I know for sure that is not going to be an issue.

 

I was not talking about the battery switches. I was talking about the run/stop switch on the remote in the engine compartment. Does a Prevost have that? 

If you left the run switch in the stop position, and it is not DDEC (sorry if I missed it but I never did see in previous posts where you said it was DDEC or MUI) then the engine
will run until the air pressure builds up enough to engage the shutdown.  After that, it will not run at all, until the air leaks off just enough for it to start and run for say 5 minutes before
it builds up enough air to engage the shutdown again...

If it would run with the key engaged, and not when you let up on the key, then it is definitely either this switch, or one of the safety sensors (low water, low oil pressure, hot engine)
These you can check by simply removing the wire from the sensors one at a time until it stays running. Make sure the bus is aired up when you are troubleshooting this.
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Craig Shepard
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stevet903
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2010, 06:37:21 PM »

90 is a DDEC II engine.  The rear start switch is a three position switch - front off rear.  In the front position it will only start/run from the key, and in the rear position it will only start from the rear pushbutton.  In the off position neither will work.  Sometimes the key switch gets corroded and you get an intermittent turn the key and nothing happens....

Steve
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2010, 07:12:31 PM »

I had to contact this board to get  straitened out on the rear switches. An easy thing to do. My 9 would start then shut down after a time then wouldn't start backup. Then after awhile it would start again. I had my Head where it didn't belong and once I got my head pulled out I could see better thanks to this board.

Check the rear swithes if you have them.
John
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John Riddle
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2010, 10:21:02 PM »

Unless you need to move the bus, I would just leave it alone until the weather warmed up again.  There is no need to run a Diesel every week, every other week or even every month.  Things just don't happen in a Diesel like it does in a gasoline engine.  There is nothing harder on an engine then starting or cranking it in sub freezing weather where the oil is very thick.  Once again, unless you have to move it-leave the engine alone until the weather is back up in the 70's.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2010, 03:51:10 AM »

Unless you need to move the bus, I would just leave it alone until the weather warmed up again.  There is no need to run a Diesel every week, every other week or even every month.  Things just don't happen in a Diesel like it does in a gasoline engine.  There is nothing harder on an engine then starting or cranking it in sub freezing weather where the oil is very thick.  Once again, unless you have to move it-leave the engine alone until the weather is back up in the 70's.  Good Luck, TomC
What Tom said plus, set up some kind of smart charger to keep your batteries charged, running the bus once a week is not the way to to it.
the others have covered many of the areas to check for the no start.
 Consider reading more of the archives here to learn more in general about the various safety systems buses have that will shut them down.  Also many have disabled these systems to avoid complicating their lives.
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2010, 05:44:08 AM »

How much fuel is in your tank? 
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Tully Lee
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2010, 06:46:56 AM »

Has a little over 1/4 tank of fuel.

Tully
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2010, 07:07:03 AM »

You might want to put in another 20 gallons or so. If you are tilted to one side a little or if the gauge is off a little you could be lower than you think.
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1968 MCI 5A with 8V71 and Allison MT644 transmission.  Western USA
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« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2010, 09:24:22 AM »

Check your fuel filters and make sure that they are full.  You may have run out of fuel which caused it to die the first time.   Then when you restarted and it ran for a few seconds, the injectors went dry.  Take the air filter out and shoot some either/start fluid in there and crank the engine.  If it starts, then you are not getting fuel and need to find out why.
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Dennis Watson
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Tully Lee
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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2010, 10:31:36 AM »

Got it going....  Was a little warmer today.  I put a little more water into the radiator even though the visual window showed it did not need it.  So maybe that was part of it.

Anyways, I have printed all the replies so if I run into a situation again I will know what to do.

The bus ran smooth with no issue once running.

Thanks again folks!

The # forum I think.

Tully
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2010, 11:11:26 AM »

Congrats on getting it going. If i were you i would take it down and fill the fuel tank. Since you are in a cool climate you are going to get condensation in your fuel tank. Come spring you are probably either gonna be sucking water or alge, or both. Sad
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« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2010, 05:21:02 PM »

Congrats on getting it going. If i were you i would take it down and fill the fuel tank. Since you are in a cool climate you are going to get condensation in your fuel tank. Come spring you are probably either gonna be sucking water or alge, or both. Sad

Not to mention that this time of year the fuel stop should be selling a "winter blend" that already has the anti-gel additives!
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« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2010, 09:16:20 PM »

Filling is money in the tank! Better than the bank. Any other clues? Spinning faster at crank? Glad shes running again. Mine wouldent start the other day with out the block heater at 28 degrees.
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