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Author Topic: lost my nuts  (Read 3843 times)
David Anderson
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« on: December 10, 2010, 08:33:58 PM »

Lug nuts and studs, that is.  I came back from a trip and noticed a stud was broken.  I removed the other nuts to replace it and the stud adjacent the broken one turned ok, then when I went to turn it by hand it fell of in my glove.  These two make the five out of ten that have broken off on the street side front wheel in two years. 

When I bought new tires two years ago the tire shop must have way over tightened.  I put on two new lugs yesterday and tightened by hand.  I hope I don't lose the remaining 5 original studs.  I've never had a problem on the curbside wheels.

David
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2010, 08:41:10 PM »

David if it were me I'd go ahead and replace all 10 and specifically hand torque them! Then in 100 miles I'd jack it up and re-torque them!
Just my opinion!
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2010, 09:04:57 PM »

Did you get your tires from Les Schwab?
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 05:25:48 AM »

Replace them all, they cannot be trusted, you have more than enough evidence that they have been badly abused.

When the first one breaks, a thorough inspection needs to be done on the rest, after the second one breaks, that triggers full replacement for me.

I expect that there will be visible evidence of thread pulling and stud elongation in the thread below where the nut sits.

Thanks for sharing!

happy coaching!
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 05:33:59 AM »

If it were me I'd get rid of them and replace with new.  It is a sickening feeling to watch a wheel come out of a wheel well and pass you (don't ask).  The cost is cheap insurance.
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 05:38:12 AM »

I concur with everyone else. Since this is a front wheel, the end result of a lost wheel could be catastrophic.

Replace them all.

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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 05:42:19 AM »

Oh, and could you save the studs if they show any damage?

Great to show other busnuts what a bad stud looks like in comparison to a new one.

happy coaching!
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 05:43:02 AM »

Gee.......overtightened at a tire shop? How could that have happened!  Huh   Since the first time that i tried to take my wheels off and found that the only thing that worked was a 12:1 multiplier, i have hand torqued my own wheels. This spring i  replaced all of my steel wheels since i found 2 that were cracked and the others were suspect as far as the holes being too worn.  These wheels could have been the original 1968 wheels as far as i know. I also just had the fronts studs replaced when i had new front bearings, seals, and brakes put on this summer. It may take a little longer and be work for me but a tire shop isn't going to get near my wheels with an air gun as long as i own the bus. Grin
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 05:47:09 AM »

Forgot to mention that i also replaced all of the lug nuts too, even though some were obviously newer than some of the others......not the place to try to save a dollar or two there.
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kyle4501
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 06:47:38 AM »

You could have a bad batch of studs, but I doubt it. It is far more likely they were over tightened.

This happens more often than some realize.
Most impact guns have higher torque ccw than cw. This is because most threads are RH (cw) to tighten & more is needed to remove. The problem comes when a tire monkey installs the nuts on the road side & does not realize he is over torquing them.

Now I'm waiting to see the responses of those who insist tire shops know what they are doing. . . .  Wink

It is the bus driver's responsibility to ensure it is safe.
However, that is a task often made difficult by incompetent 'professionals' who talk a good game. . .  Sad
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 07:02:58 AM »

The Houston Metro bus had steel wheels looking at photos of Davids studs they don't look long enough Eagle studs should have a nut width of thread showing after installing and tightening the wheel or they break for some reason.
You engineering guys can answer that one lol
 Fwiw I never broke a stud installing aluminum wheels most of the time it will break the wheel first,you guys need to be sure that you have the right bevel on the nut for aluminum wheels  



good luck
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 07:18:25 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 07:26:50 AM »

When I look at the stud and nut it looks to me that they are not the correct match.

That nut looks like it has a tapered end meant to go on a differant rim completly.

Shouldn't that rim have a flat face and a nut with a flat face.

I also agree not enough threads exposed but if the nut is wrong that would explain it.

Look closer.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 07:28:34 AM by Paso One » Logged

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kyle4501
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 07:46:51 AM »

Good point about the taper of the nut. I assumed that was already confirmed.

For those that care, the exposed thread requirement is because the therads at the end of the stud are not 'perfect' like the rest of the threads. They tend to taper. Also, those last few threads have nothing to 'push against' & will yield under a lower load than those threads further away from the end of the stud.

In any properly tensioned high load joint, due to elastic stretching of the stud, only 3 threads carry the load. The stud returns to the original length when the nut is removed.
When over tightened, the the stretching becomes plastic & the stud does not return to the original length. Also, when stretched, the diameter reduces which lowers the overall strength of the stud. When constantly over tightened, this reduction of strength is cumulative up to the point of failure.

David, I'm so glad you made it home. Do replace all studs - it is cheap when compared to the risks. I'd also highly recommend repacing all the others - no guarantee the other wheels were spared the same abuse your front wheel suffered. . . .

Good luck & safe travels!  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 07:49:54 AM »

same thing happened to me when i said i do
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David Anderson
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2010, 08:36:51 AM »

The Houston Metro bus had steel wheels looking at photos of Davids studs they don't look long enough Eagle studs should have a nut width of thread showing after installing and tightening the wheel or they break for some reason.
You engineering guys can answer that one lol
 Fwiw I never broke a stud installing aluminum wheels most of the time it will break the wheel first,you guys need to be sure that you have the right bevel on the nut for aluminum wheels  



good luck
When I bought the bus I changed the wheels and had longer studs installed.  I don't have a clue about the correct nut bevel.  I may need some input on this.  What do I need to ask for.  I can replace all 10 nuts on each side if these are wrong.  When you walk into Truck Pro or any other parts house all they do is ask, "what's the part number?"  Not much help otherwise.  Do you guys needs some better close up photos?

Let me know.

David
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 08:40:04 AM by David Anderson » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 09:13:41 AM »

A guy came up to me and said YOU have a face like a wrench !.........I said HUH !  He then said every Time I look at you MY nuts tighten up.................Sorry bout that !
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 09:43:32 AM »

David, the shop more than likely used the nuts to pull the studs into place instead of a press so they didn't have to remove the hubs pretty common practice with some shops but it stretches the stud.
Read the number on the wheel and go to the wheel manufactures site it will give you the degree of bevel for the nuts and wheels 60,45.and etc 



good luck
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 04:14:34 PM »

 Been therte done that:: I had a road tracter that did the same thing we went through every thing we could think of nothing worked . Finely an older tire man put it on the machine alligned the front end   never had that problem again. Check it out.
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2010, 05:01:35 PM »

A number of years ago I want coming down the Siskuos mountain pass(leaving Oregon to California on I-5) in my GMPD4106 We had just decended and were on the flat when the bus started to vibrate. My son suggested to speed up to see if it would go away. It didn't and I returned to 65 mph. Suddenly all hell broke loose and I saw one wheel go past me and go into the ditch. Another wheel hit a car that was passing me at the time. There was some minor damage to the car. The bus came to a stop resting on a suspension component half way into the median.
What had happened is that the studs holding the left rear duals had all sheared causing the wheels to come off.

After I had the bus repaired and returned home I mentioned this incident to the mechanic who had done some previous engine work for me. His response was "I told you two wheel studs were broken". I either didn't hear him or perhaps thought "I still have eight left". Not sure which.

As for tire shops over tightening nuts , around here they do use air guns but then do the final torquing with a torque wrench.

Oh, and I now pay more attention to sudden vibration in ANY vehicle I drive. Not to mention examining wheels, tires, and nuts on a regular basis. 

 

 
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 05:49:53 PM »



Now I'm waiting to see the responses of those who insist tire shops know what they are doing. . . .  Wink

It is the bus driver's responsibility to ensure it is safe.
However, that is a task often made difficult by incompetent 'professionals' who talk a good game. . .  Sad

Gave me a good chuckle.  When I first bought my bus I was nervous about people working on It. I took it to Les Schwab in Salem Or.  I bought 2 new Michelan Steer tires and questioned the manager on proper jacking of the bus and such, I wanted to make sure they did things right!  He assured me that his help was highly trained and recieved continuous training and supervision.

 I was new and way in over my head and watched as the two highly trained and supervised employee's put my lug nuts on with a 1 inch impact gun! I really had no business being responsible for a 30,000 lb vehicle on a public Hwy.

 Of course when I tried to take the tires off it was with a huge pipe and broke a breaker bar. Live and learn.

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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 07:39:00 PM »

I was new and way in over my head . . . . .  I really had no business being responsible for a 30,000 lb vehicle on a public Hwy.


The same can be said for many of us.  Shocked
Fortunately, we have this board to assist in learning from others . . .  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2010, 09:35:19 PM »

David, the shop more than likely used the nuts to pull the studs into place instead of a press so they didn't have to remove the hubs pretty common practice with some shops but it stretches the stud.
Read the number on the wheel and go to the wheel manufactures site it will give you the degree of bevel for the nuts and wheels 60,45.and etc  



good luck
Thanks Clifford,  I will check that.  I learn something every day from this forum.

David
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2010, 04:42:37 AM »

Quote
As for tire shops over tightening nuts , around here they do use air guns but then do the final torquing with a torque wrench.

Sure they do, but that may not mean very much. Bought some new tyres yesterday and watched the experts at work. Use the rattle gun and then make a big show of marching over to the bench to get the torque wrench. Click, click, click, click, click, click ...... and not a single nut turned even a degree before the click sounded. Job done, torque wrench used. What more could you want.

Experts??

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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2010, 05:39:36 AM »

Well Tony, at least you know that they were torqued at least to whatever the wrench was set to. Only problem is not knowing how much they were over torqued.....10 lbs.? 50 lbs,? 300lbs.? or even more?  Sad
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2010, 07:07:53 AM »

What would be an appropriate  torque range?.
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2010, 08:00:26 AM »

I think tony was getting new tires for a car or truck.  The appropriate torque will vary depending on lug size and if it's a nut or a bolt, but it's in the owners manual.  For a bus with Budd wheels, it's 450 - 500 ft lbs.

Brian
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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2010, 10:05:50 AM »

FWIW last spring I needed some new all season tires for my work van.  I hardly ever let other people work on my rides, but I don't have the machine to put install and balance tires, so I'm a the tire shop and I get them to pull the wheels and install tires and re install.   Big mistake!  Last week when I went to change my all seasons wheels for my awesome studded winter wheels.....put my decent 1/2" impact (aprox.400ft/lbs of torque) and not a nut would budge....breaker bar and cheater pipe...still no go.  Had to break out my 3/4" impact with punk tank (supposedly 1200-1400 ft/lbs) and that loosed them.  What a PITA and all 'cause I let the geniuses at the tire store re install the wheels.  just glad I didn't get a flat all summer, as I only have a 1/2" breaker bar and cheater pipe in my van and that would not do the trick.  Live and learn....then learn the same thing again....and again...and again.
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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2010, 04:20:40 PM »

Zub, I hope you don't have the same luck as me.  I had a very similar thing happen on an 89 Suburban.  Took me and my considerable weight and one son on a LONG cheater pipe to break every lug loose.  Later I had broken wheel studs, constant loose wheels, son lost a wheel which also cost a brake rotor and much grief.   

I decided that if it happened again I would take it to the tire shop and INSIST that the manager take the lugs off with the factory supplied lug wrench.  Then let them pay for someone else to properly change all the studs.

Good luck,
Don 4107
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Don 4107 Eastern Washington
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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2010, 05:48:19 PM »

Last summer i bought new tires from a Les Schwab in eastern WA.  I asked the guy how they knew how much to torque the lug nuts to, as i know it varies from rig to rig. He said they had a chart, looked up my jeep and said it was either 95 or 100 lbs. if i remember right.  I told him and showed him that my book showed 75 lbs. and asked that he hand torque, which he did. Smiley  Shortly after i bought the jeep, (used), i had a flat tire 2 miles from town while it was raining. It took me 30 minutes to bust the lug nuts loose and i almost gave up on it. Don't know what they had them torqued to, but i have never let anybody use an air gun on any of my rigs since.
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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2010, 06:31:08 PM »

David, the shop more than likely used the nuts to pull the studs into place instead of a press so they didn't have to remove the hubs pretty common practice with some shops but it stretches the stud.
Read the number on the wheel and go to the wheel manufactures site it will give you the degree of bevel for the nuts and wheels 60,45.and etc 



good luck

Easy way around that is to put those studs in the freezer overnight and hang a trouble light on the hub. I do that even when I'm pressing stuff together.
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2010, 05:32:34 PM »

Quote from: Chopper Scott
Easy way around that is to put those studs in the freezer overnight and hang a trouble light on the hub. I do that even when I'm pressing stuff together.

Scott I know exactly what you mean! We do the same thing around here with more than just studs!
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2010, 05:35:54 PM »

Dry ice in a cooler, common practice. fwiw Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2010, 05:41:50 PM »

Quote from: van
Dry ice in a cooler, common practice. fwiw Smiley

Yeah but it can be hard to come by in Podunk USA and has to be used right away.
For those of us that have garage beverage fridges it's cheaper and easier to throw the parts in the freezer overnight.
Grin  BK  Grin
B'sides mine always gets wet and greats a huge fog! Wink
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2010, 09:46:59 AM »

As per Clifford's suggestion I finally had some time to look at the wheels.  On the rim it says:

Alcoa  7200lbs max  120psi T-DOT
0994 Part #983100   24.5x8.25  15degree DC

The nuts I'm using are:  EUC E5977L  outer cap nut.

Anyone know from this if I have the correct combination??

Thanks,
David
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2010, 10:35:04 AM »

According to this web site https://www.fleetwheel.com/store/page8.html (on page one) it says Budd stud piloted wheels all use 1.5" non-flange ball seat nuts.  So it that's what you have you should be good.

Brian
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2010, 10:42:42 AM »

David, that is a aftermarket nut made by Euclid checkout the Dorman site it will  have a cross reference chart with the bevels 


good luck
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