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Author Topic: Sheppard PS and Allison V730  (Read 4320 times)
gus
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« on: December 14, 2010, 06:59:43 PM »

My 4107 Sheppard PS has about 6" play at the wheel rim, is this normal? I thought these things were tight but this is much more play than my 4104 manual steering has! Does Sheppard have any adjustments at the steering box? I suspect the original gears, shafts and universals are worn so I need to look at those.

The V730 is also new to me, I have a fire truck with an Allison but it is a MT643 and is manual. This V730 is elect over air. I forgot and left it in drive the first night on the way home. One expensive service call for air, I won't forget again!!

I also tried shifting down to 2nd on a hill once at around 35mph but nothing happened. Can some of you more experienced hands clue me in on the proper way to use it on hills?

It sure is nice not to have to worry about starting on steep slopes any more!
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luvrbus
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 03:33:27 AM »

Gus, somebody has the Stone/Bennett wired wrong when wired right you can not shut the engine off unless in neutral ,I would have thought on that 4107 Larry would have done that it just take a relay,the steering on the model 4107 has always been sloppy maybe RJ can tell you how to solve it  


good luck
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:37:14 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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Christyhicks
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 05:55:17 AM »

As I PM'd you, Gus, Larry had taken it over to Jefferson Bus in OKC and they went through the power steering, replaced a single part on it and pronounced the rest as all rebuilt and in great shape. . .  he assured Larry that it is as good as they get.   Nothing like the manual, that's for sure. 

Again, great meeting you and just keep emailing us if you have any questions.  Christy Hicks
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 10:28:45 AM »



Every one who thinks play in the power steering on a old gm is as good as it gets come to Jacks and I will let them try "HUGGY" out.

 No play no wander. best driving vehicle that I have.

uncle ned
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JLL
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 10:30:38 AM »

I have had a V 730  with a stone bennett shifter for several years in my 4106,  I don't know about not being able to shut it down. When it's still in gear. Mine does'nt work that way.    On mine,  if in gear and out of air all I do is go to the shifter at the trans and shift by hand.  That has always worked for me.  

Good luck  JLL
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Paso One
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 10:42:21 AM »

My Stone Bennett shifter is all electric.  No air
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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
6V71  V730 4:10
Christyhicks
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2010, 11:03:04 AM »

This one is the Stone Bennett I believe, but it is air and electric, and when you stop, you shift it into neutral before shutting down, that way if your air drops down very low, you can still start it again, because it does have a neutral start switch and evidently, the switch does work, so if you leave it in drive and lose too much air, you don't have a way to shift it back into neutral to start the coach. 

Larry just couldn't remember clearly enough to try to explain over the phone how to shift it by hand and whether it would be easy enough for Gus to get to. . . .was worried that he could end up stuck there if something didn't go right, so, since Gus did have road service, the safest was to have someone come and air him up enough so that he could shift it back into neutral. (about 1/2 hr after Gus left, we got the call that Larry's daughter was in labor with her first child, so we high-tailed it to the hospital, not getting home and to bed until 5:00 a.m. the next morning, so when Gus called later that morning, we were both pretty bleary-eyed from lack of sleep!)

 If I had thought clearly, I should have just sent a small air compressor along with Gus when he left, but it was freezing cold outside as we were going over stuff and checking tires and everything, and it just never occurred to me.

OTOH, he says he'll NEVER forget to shift into neutral before shutting down, and we all have learned lessons the hard way ourselves. ..  I think I've learned more than my share it seems! Wink  Christy
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2010, 11:07:41 AM »

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Every one who thinks play in the power steering on a old gm is as good as it gets come to Jacks and I will let them try "HUGGY" out

Gus may want to talk to you about that.  Larry figured, that after Jefferson looked at it and said everything was good other than that u-joint he replaced, well, knowing their experience, that it was just how GM's were. . . and of course, other GM-owners have said the same.  Perhaps you've got a lot more insight on what to do to tighten it up. .  it's not bad on good roads, but  sure seems to me that highways are deterioating these days, not improving, so I'm sure if there are things he can do, Gus is a pretty sharp guy and will want to know about them.

Christy Hicks
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luvrbus
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2010, 11:32:12 AM »

Guys any Stone/Bennett shifter can be wired to prevent shut down if not in neutral it is not that big of a deal 


good luck
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gmbusguy1
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2010, 02:04:32 PM »

Gus, The gm coaches were built and designed for bias ply tires Not Radials, most any Gm or Gmc will drive a lot better with about 6 degrees of caster. now on the 4104's you can not adjust the caster at all. but the 4106, 4107, 4108, 4903, 4905 and H8H you can adjust the caster. the reason for the need for more caster than when built is the tires, radials have what is referred as radial lag that the bias ply's do not have as much of.

Now on to your steering play

the Sheppard power steering gear boxes do not have a adjustment like some other gear boxes do although it does look like the same nut and shaft this does not adjust any play out at all.

I would start by looking at the steering bevel box which can be shimmed to take out too much free play

the next item I would inspect closely is the prop shaft from the bevel box to the steering gear box quite often the splines will wear and it does not take much wear to make for a lot of free play

and as far as I know most all stone bennett shifter used in our coaches are air over electric and if you get in that situation again all you need to do is push/pull the shifter rod coming out of the control box attached to the transmission toward the back of the bus until it is in neutral and it will start

Hope this helps

Chris
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gus
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 05:30:49 PM »

After reading the manual V730 Larry gave me it appears that shifting to Neutral by hand at the trans is not that difficult if reachable. It was bitterly cold and windy the day of my experience and I just didn't want to mess with it since I wasn't sure it should be done. Now I know!!

It is a mystery to me why it isn't straight electric? I see no reason for air being involved at all since wiring is already there?

The steering feels to me as if all the play is from the wheel to the box but I haven't had time to check it out yet. I didn't know about Jefferson working on it until today. They should know their stuff but I can't imagine any steering with that much play. One learns to move the wheel back and forth constantly to maintain an average course, but in tight construction zone situations it is pretty interesting!! I expected it to be tight like most PS vehicles, the slack sort of caught me by surprise.

Ned,

Where is Jack's and what is Huggy (a bus I presume)?

Again, thanks to all for the responses. Christy and Larry are the greatest, I had a great time with them even with all the hectic times getting the bus ready for the trip home.
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Christyhicks
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2010, 06:15:58 PM »

Ahhhhh, Get out of here Gus!  Embarrassed hahahahaha

Actually, if I had done one HALF of the interesting stuff in my life that you've done. . . .I'd be mighty proud!  Only crashed ONE plane  Roll Eyes. . . hahahaha, you crack me up!   Cheesy

We did have a great time and wish it hadn't been so hectic and cold. .. next time buy a bus from us in the Summer so we can take our time and relax outside instead of chattering our teeth.  It's crazy. . we had insulated coveralls hanging right inside the office there, and yet like a fool, I'm laying down in the ice cold gravel shaking like a Quaker!  Afterwards I thought, "Boy, that was dumb!"

As it was, an hour after you left, we were out the door to go to the hospital to wait for the new grandbaby, so you'd have been all by yourself at the house anyway.. . . well, you and Dallas (the cat, not the OTHER Dallas, ha ha).  He would have LOVED to have kept you company!  Have a great evening!  Christy
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uncle ned
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 06:50:23 PM »




Gus 

Jacks is where all good busnuts congregate for new years. More bull is spilt there than any where in the world.

"HUGGY" is a 4104#172   6v92 & v730   power steering tilt wheel and where more bull comes from.

except from nc bob.

uncle ned
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 09:39:29 PM »

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Gus, somebody has the Stone/Bennett wired wrong when wired right you can not shut the engine off unless in neutral

That is how it should work, no shut down until in neutral.

Quote
the Sheppard power steering gear boxes do not have a adjustment

Correct

Even in a new box, because of the internal design of that box, there will always be a little play. There is an internal valve that has to move before the output shaft starts to move. Because of the normal play in that box, everything else has to be very tight or you will experience more play than you would like. If you still have the original wheel (like I do) the large diameter creates a perception of a lot more play than if you had a smaller diameter steering wheel. The large wheel was needed with manual steering but not with power steering. A modern normal sized wheel will help, and most people do make the change. So instead of a 6" swing, you might only have 3". I think mine has about four to six inches of play but my bus doesn't wander. I agree that it might be helped with the proper alignment.
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 06:27:33 AM »

I fixed a major wander issue with my bus that has Sheppard steering by re-centering  the steering box.  It has to be dead centered with the front wheels straight.  You adjust the drag link length to adjust.  You can check easily by putting the steer wheels deal straight and looking at the pitman arm - it should be dead in line with the steering box body. 

Not saying you have a wander issue, but I was back and forth on the wheel a ton before I did this, and now the bus tracks a lot better, far less steering input required.  My drag link was about an inch too long.

brian
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 01:23:27 PM »

My Stone Bennett shifter is all electric. 

I pulled out my manual that came with the Stone Bennett shifter.  The instructions included were with the optional hydraulic electric solenoid as opposed to the air/ over electric solenoid.

Closer examination of mine is the solenoids are part # BS30428 which are the coil-air solenoid.

The manual says "Neutral off module prohibits voluntary shut-down of coach when transmission is in gear".

next sentance says  "pressuriized gas accumalator provides shifting power to return to neutral in the event of an involuntary engine shut down "

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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
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gmbusguy1
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 01:51:20 PM »

I believe your fishy has a VS model transmission if so the shifter is a whole different animal than the V730 or h series

Brian, I am not 100 sure but believe that the MCI uses a different model Shepperd gear box than a Buffalo

the GM pitman arm zero point is different than a MCI

Chris
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 01:57:59 PM »

Chris, you are no doubt right on that, but I suspect that the centering requirement remains.  I was astounded at the effect it had when I fixed mine. 

Brian
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2010, 02:06:04 PM »

Brian Yes you are correct in that the important thing is the spec, I just did not want anybody to make adjustments with out reading the manual for their specific bus

thanks

Chris
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 02:08:50 PM »

No Chris  My transmission is the V730   I took out the VH 9  that it originally had. ( see  pdf attachment)

I also have a VS transmission on the shop floor out of Fishbowl Brians  Seattle  Bus,  I can visually see the differance. :0

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68 5303 Fishbowl 40' x 102"
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2010, 02:29:12 PM »

Chris,
My 4104  caster was 1.5 deg. positive, I changed it to 3 Degrees by adding tapered shims. It helped alot on the highway.
I thought about adding more positive caster, but thought it would increase the steering effort too much in town.
It has the manual box.
I am running 11R22.5 radial tires.

I have maybe 2" slop at the wheel.

John
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 04:08:17 PM »

John, I would probably leave that 3 degrees alone with manual steering. the only handling issue usually associated with too much caster is after turning a corner the steering wheel will not return to center as well.

where did you shim the 4104 for the caster adjustment???



Chris
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gus
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2010, 08:22:25 PM »

Thanks for all the good info, keep it coming. When the weather gets more agreeable I'll start digging into this.

Yes, it has the original large steering wheel, didn't think about that. Every time I come to a slow sharp turn I reach around the wheel for a strong pull and it isn't there, will take a bit of time to get used to that but it is great.

OK, I know what goes on at Jack's but I still don't know where it is??
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2010, 08:34:33 PM »

Chris,
I thought that more caster would increase the effort at the wheel.
I added the shims below the axle where it bolts up at.

John
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RJ
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2010, 10:51:01 PM »

Gus -

OK, I know what goes on at Jack's but I still don't know where it is??


Jack's party (Bussin' 11), takes place in Arcadia, FL, over New Year's Weekend. (12/29 > 01/02)  Specifically at the Turner Agri-Center in Arcadia, 90 miles SW of Orlando, or 90 miles SE of Tampa.

Since it's the 10th anniversary, there will probably be well over 100 buses of all shapes, makes and sizes in attendance.

Well worth the trip and there's room for one more - come join us!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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gus
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2010, 04:27:11 PM »

RJ,

Thanks, Florida has never been on our itinerary. That is a long haul from Fresno! Do you really go from CA to FL during the winter??

 I never did get a chance to stop by to see you during our annual trips from Tucson and SD up to WA, there was always something making me rush up the state.

One day!!
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johns4104
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2010, 06:08:20 PM »

Gus,
There is always the bus rally in Quartzite az.

John
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RJ
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2010, 08:21:50 PM »

Gus -

For Jack's rally, this year it's USAir, Enterprise RAC & Holiday Inn Express.

Well worth the $$, IMHO.

Will probably make the drive down to Quartzsite in January, too.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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