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Author Topic: Heat options  (Read 4218 times)
TomC
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2010, 08:24:47 AM »

I have 2.25" of sprayed insulation and single pane Pen windows with light tinting.  I use a 35,000btu Atwood propane furnace that has always done a good job (lowest temp I've been in is 27 degrees where the furnace ran about every half hour).

This last weekend we were in Las Vegas and stayed at the Oasis RV Resort-highly recommend it.  We had 50amp service and used two electric space heaters for our heat that worked well.  Course the weather was relatively warm, not getting below 40 at night.

You hear of MANY questions and maintenance issues with Diesel fuel fired heating systems.  While it is nice to have all your heating, water heating, and engine pre heating done by one system, if that system goes down (and they do more often then I like) your stuck with no heat (except the electric standby that would give you hot water).  Personally- I have three heating systems on my bus- the propane furnace and propane stove, electric strips in the three roof top A/C's (and yes they do work-takes a while to get warm), and my original heater core (that is 60" x 22" x 4") that is under my hall cabinets run with 2-14" radiator fans along with the defroster up front.  Stick with propane-even if it goofs up, it is easy to fix or replace by numerous RV repair places.  J.C. Whitney even sells them-I bought from them last time. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
luvrbus
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2010, 08:36:40 AM »

A lot of the newer RV's are using the Adle propane fired hydronic system now (the old Primus)  fwiw I liked my propane fired Hydronic system better than my Aqua Hot diesel fired but it is all a matter of preference of what heat you use but there is no free lunch on any type.
I have a friend in Houston that removed his Aqua Hot diesel and replaced it with the Aqua Hot propane system people do funny things LOL


good luck
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 08:40:45 AM by luvrbus » Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
lostagain
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2010, 09:15:56 AM »

The Webasto engine pre-heater on the hockey team's 102D3/ DD S60 is the best thing since buses were discovered. I had to tune it up and fix it 5 years ago when I first took over the bus, and it has been good since, other than routine maintenance. Like anything else, it has to be looked after and maintained to get good service out of it.

JC
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JC
Invermere, BC
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740
bevans6
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2010, 11:48:27 AM »

O sibili, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero.
O Nobili! Demis trux
Vat es inem,
Caus in dux.


-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com



OK, I got two things to say - Google is your friend, and that was  darn funny!   Grin  Grin  Grin

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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Depewtee
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2010, 11:56:07 AM »

O sibili, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero.
O Nobili! Demis trux
Vat es inem,
Caus in dux.




Sean,

Good thing I READ SLOW....

Brian S.
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Brian Shonk
Fort Walton Beach, FL (Florida Panhandle)
1981 Prevost LeMirage Liberty Coach
1984 TMC MC-9
Sean
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2010, 12:09:26 PM »

OK, I got two things to say - Google is your friend, and that was  darn funny!   Grin  Grin  Grin


Brian,

I figured someone would Google it.  But I will tell you the story, by way of saying that it is amazing what crap we remember, and more importantly what we don't, after decades...

I first saw this nearly 40 years ago, in about my second semester of Latin I.  I had seven years of Latin and I don't remember a damn bit of it; I can hardly translate a college motto any more, but I remember the above passage as if it was yesterday.

There were maybe a dozen of us in this class, and we all filed into the room and that was written on the chalk board.  The teacher asked us to take out a sheet of paper and begin translating it.  We worked on it for what seemed like an eternity but in hindsight was probably no more than ten minutes.  It was a mighty struggle, because although many of those words are actually Latin, the passage makes no sense whatsoever and in fact is not grammatically correct.

After about ten minutes the teacher asked a student (thankfully not me) to read the passage out loud.  We all cracked up, even as we were red-faced with embarrassment.  Anyway, I posted it here because, clearly, it is bus-related content!

To save anyone else the trouble of Googling, when read aloud in Latin the passage sounds like:

Oh see Billy, see 'er go
Forty buses in a row.
Oh no, Billy, them is trucks
What is in 'em? Cows 'n ducks.

I really, really should have known better, because the previous year my French teacher had asked us to translate

Un petit d'un petit
S'étonne aux Halles
Un petit d'un petit
Ah! degrés te fallent
Indolent qui ne sort cesse
Indolent qui ne se mène
Qu'importe un petit d'un petit
Tout Gai de Reguennes.


We worked on that one for hours, and I have since seen an actual "translation" complete with scholarly footnotes...

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2010, 02:37:41 PM »


There were maybe a dozen of us in this class, and we all filed into the room and that was written on the chalk board.  The teacher asked us to take out a sheet of paper and begin translating it.  We worked on it for what seemed like an eternity but in hindsight was probably no more than ten minutes.  It was a mighty struggle, because although many of those words are actually Latin, the passage makes no sense whatsoever and in fact is not grammatically correct.

Wow, Sean, your Latin teacher was a sadist.  Miss Mary Lou Wilkins would have been very proud of her!  (Miss Mary Lou was my Latin teacher way on the other side of 40 years ago -- she had taught my parents in high school.  She gave difficult assignments but she sure got some learnin in our dense heads.)

You say that your not sure of how much value Latin has been to you're life now their's little that seems to translate from they're language to ours and some people seem to think that learning Latin was a waist of time but I think there wrong I've never seen you right a paragraph like this think that that could be related?

Best wishes,  BH NC USA
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2010, 10:52:10 PM »

  NEC and NFPC? What do either of those entities have to do with requiring what type of heating system is used in an RV? Nothing. Not a thing. They require the equipment and installation pass safety codes, nothing more. Take your rig into a shop to have work done, and ask if they follow either of those code books regulations when they do repairs or make modifications. They wouldnt know anything about those codes, they dont have those books on site, and I would like to see the look they give you if you asked. I would be surprised they would even work on it after you asked.
 

  BTU/per hr, sorry I wasnt specific enough. But im sure most everyone paying attention knew what I meant as well as the difference.

 
  Sure, you can charge a big bank of batteries with the Generator every day and draw power off of it all night. But not everyone wants a giant bank of Golf Car Batteries to carry around, maintain, isolate, and recharge every day. I know I dont.

  I used 50% burner efficiency and 20K BTU as the lowest effficiency and medium heating example, certainly not to start trouble, and I appologise if I riled anyone up. But I stand by pretty much everything I said. I believe in the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid. If the Bus already has an efficient hot water heating system, incorporate it into your system. The engine makes more than enough heat when running. When parked in a campground, use electric heat, either directly, through space heaters, or indirectly by heating water in your furnace/boiler. Boondocking is another matter entirely.

  Boondocking should allow a you to park for an extended period and not require you run the generator to function. Not once a day, or even every other day, not even weekly. Otherwise your not really boondocking. I feel the Bus should be a simple cabin on wheels, not an extended modern home that requires vast stores of energy to function. If you build a heating system that requires ZERO electricity to operate, you can heat the bugger until you run out of fuel.

  As for redundancy, you still have electric heat and the generator, the gas range, and engine heat. If you lose all of that, you have a lot more problems to deal with than a bad furnace.
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2010, 03:12:15 AM »

  NEC and NFPC? What do either of those entities have to do with requiring what type of heating system is used in an RV? Nothing. Not a thing.   (snip)

    Until you ever have to make an insurance claim.  Or maybe you get sued for absolutely nothing you did (oh, I forgot, "trial lawyers" are careful not to sue anybody for frivolous reasons even if they think they can make money off of it).  Or use electricity.  Or ...

    Knowing the code and following it is a good idea.  But we've tilled this field until the soil has washed away and President Roozie-velt has put it in the Soil Bank.

BH, NC
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
chuckd
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« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2010, 03:36:23 AM »

Probably not anything that folks here care about, but Propane stays in the liquid phase at about -40 degrees F, i.e. it is useless as a fuel when you need it the most.  You can use silicone heating blankets to keep the tanks warm under these conditions.  I use a walmart heating blanket and it works fine.  The lowest I have camped out in is 33 below.  Propane also loses a fair amount of heat capacity as the temperature drops, do not remember the percent efficiency curves that Atwood puts out, but already at minus 10 there is a fair amount of heat loss.  Just an fyi.

Chuckd
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belfert
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2010, 03:57:10 AM »

As far as engine heat goes, modern four stroke engines can't always provide enough heat.  The Webasto isn't on new coaches just to provide engine preheating.  It also provides passenger heat in cold temps.

Now, a two stroke has plenty of excess heat.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Sean
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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2010, 08:38:44 AM »

  NEC and NFPC? What do either of those entities have to do with requiring what type of heating system is used in an RV?

As I already said and Bruce has since confirmed, this ground has been well covered.

But since you asked, the NFPA is the publisher of the RV code, NFPA 1192.  The NFPA is not a jurisdictional authority but an association of professionals -- firefighters, rescuers, code officials, and industry members.  However, the codes they write, such as the National Electrical Code, become law when states "adopt" them into law.  The NEC (NFPA 70) has been adopted into law in all 50 states, making the provisions in there related to RV electrical systems the law of the land.  NFPA 1192 has been adopted into law in most states, and certainly every state with a significant RV manufacturer.  And, yes, fuel-burning heating appliances are covered in this code, and your heating installation must comply with these provisions when in those states.

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... Take your rig into a shop to have work done, and ask if they follow either of those code books regulations when they do repairs or make modifications. They wouldnt know anything about those codes,

Again, the fact that any given individual or business is ignorant of the law does not by itself mean the law does not exist or is not in force.  I can assure you that if you take your rig to, say, Thor's service center they are well aware of the requirements of 1192.  Same thing for Millenium, Parliament, American, Vantare -- all professional converters who follow these standards and have service centers.  Just because Bob's Repair shop doesn't know anything about them doesn't mean you will be magically exempted from the law if something happens.  If Bob made a repair to your rig without following the code perhaps you could shift any liability to him, but as you know, that's a matter for the courts to sort out after the fact.

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  Boondocking should allow a you to park for an extended period and not require you run the generator to function. Not once a day, or even every other day, not even weekly. Otherwise your not really boondocking. I feel the Bus should be a simple cabin on wheels, not an extended modern home that requires vast stores of energy to function.

Just to be clear, we run our generator about once every three days, not every day.  But the notion that a bus "should be a simple cabin on wheels" is a matter of opinion -- not everybody here is looking for that level of austerity.  Some of use have no other home but our buses and would like the conveniences of a modern home, boondocking or not.  I would also dispute your assertion that running a generator, even 24/7, means you are not "boondocking" -- if you are in the boondocks, you are in the boondocks.

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If you build a heating system that requires ZERO electricity to operate, you can heat the bugger until you run out of fuel.

Umm, even if you do need electricity to operate it, you can still only run it until you run out of fuel.  You are claiming that by not using electricity, that time will be later than if you also need to periodically run a generator to recharge batteries to supply that electricity.  It is only this point that I am disputing -- you are probably correct over very short time periods (a few hours).  Over periods of days or weeks, I am arguing that electrically powered diesel heating appliances will use less fuel overall including the fuel for the generator.

Now if your argument is that you do not like generators, don't want to listen to them, etc. I respect that and I am certain there are others here who share that view.  And for you (and them) there are, indeed, solutions, such as the Dickinson, that can do very well.

But that's not what you said.  You said "f you trade a little furnnace efficiency for lower electrical loads, not needing to run the gen to charge batteries, etc., the actual net loss/gain could come out much higher" and it is only this statement that I am disputing.  It has been proven over and over again that proper atomization and combustion airflow improves efficiency well beyond the minimal amount of electricity required to do this.  The testing and reports are well published in the literature and anyone can look them up.

FWIW, I share your view that generators should be minimized, which is why our bus is designed to be extremely energy efficient, even while at the same time having all the comforts of a full-time home.  But my tolerance for generators is clearly different from yours, just as there are many here who have no issues at all with running them 24/7 if needed.

I am not trying to change your vision for how you would like your bus to work -- each of us has a different idea of where the balances should lie among up-front cost, energy efficiency, length of boondocking time, noise, coach weight, and a dozen other factors, and that's why no two of our buses look alike.  But many, many people read these threads, sometimes years later, and they deserve to hear all sides of the issue.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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RJ
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2010, 08:42:40 AM »

TruckTramp -

Going back to your original question:  Shoot, if we could figure out a way to harness all the hot air that's expelled on this and all the other busnut message boards, you wouldn't have to worry about your coach's heating requirements!!

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

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RJ Long
PD4106-2784 No More
Fresno CA
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