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Author Topic: Help MCI won't Fire  (Read 4614 times)
fredcliff
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« on: December 20, 2010, 05:30:43 AM »

Our 1984 v6-92 Detroit Diesel won't Fire! We have checked all fluids and charged batteries,we rebuilt starter and replaced the fuel filters and still she won't fire. . We preheat the engine to no avail. What are we missing
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 05:47:16 AM »

Is it a mechanical or a DDEC engine?  What happens when you crank it?  Any smoke, or it just spins over?  When did it run last, and why did you feel you needed new batteries and starter?  How did you prime it after changing the fuel filters?

Brian
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 06:10:24 AM »

When we try to start it, it smokes and turns over and spins but doesn't fire. Yes we primed it after changing the filter by pumping fuel into the filters, the starter was rebuilt after we had it check and it was found to be on its last leg. The batteries kept getting worn down as we tried to start it. It was last run two days before we started having problems. it ran fine with no problems 
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 06:19:23 AM »

Its getting fuel if it smokes. You dident answer if its a ddec or not. If you have an emergency shutdown flap make sure its not activated and shutting off your air. Did you just change the filters? Has it run since you changed them?
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 06:47:11 AM »

Fred
do you have air pressure?
If so the cylinder for the fuel shut off to the rack could be extended.

If the cylinder is extended there are two ways to temporarily solve this one is to take the air hose loose from it. Or you can remove one of the mounting screws on the side of it out and twist the cylinder to the side. (either way once the cylinder is removed from the shut off lever it should start "if this is the problem."

Have you tried giving it a shot of either to see if it will "hit" or not?
If it hits on either it means your either not getting proper fuel to it, or it's not turning over fast enough to build enough heat to fire it.
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 07:01:48 AM »

Mine did exactly what you described but mine is an 8v71. MY problem turned to be nothing more than being cold. Did you plug in your block heater the night before starting? If not, you may want to warm the engine compartment and it may help. Once the temperature warmed up outside, mine started right up..Detroits HATE Cold weather. I hope this helps.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 07:08:57 AM »

First of all it happen to me.....is rear switch in correct position?  she will turn over but not start if it is in the wrong position.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 07:22:23 AM »

The MCI has a low pressure fuel shut down I think it has to have 7# before it opens not sure about the pressure check the filters again and be sure they are full and reprime, the engine has a gear driven pump and will not pick up fuel if the filters are not full and no air leaks smoke doesn't mean that much on a 2 stroke and what size batteries do you have are they large enough a Detroit will fire when down to about 20 with the right batteries,follow BK about the shut down sometimes they stick in shutdown



good luck
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 12:23:26 PM »

Alright just got back from a visit to the 84 MCI. first thing I did was check the resistance of the leads to the low pressure pump and it read about half an OHM and then testing ground it read 0 OHMs. so I'm assuming it gets power second i aimed a heater into the engine bay to raise it over 30degrees, got it to probably 90, primed it again and gave it a tiny shot of ether and it fired! but after about 5 minutes of running it got shaky and sounded like it was only firing a few cylinders and then it proceeded to die. I'm not sure where to go from here kind of at a loss and anymore help would be greatly appreciated.  Also i would like to know if what i think is the low pressure pump actually is that, it's the only round object with a positive and negative lead on the fuel system that i can see but it's confusing because I thought a pump should have an inlet and an outlet but it has just one outlet leading into the fuel filter assembly. thanks so much.
 
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 12:38:35 PM »

The fuel pump is mechanical it is on the front of the blower behind the water cross over pipe it has a inlet line from the filter and a outlet line going to the heads check for air leaks those pumps will not stay primed if you have a air leak on the suction side check the pump area if you have fuel wetness around that area the seal in the pump has gone bad then you need to change the pump 



good luck
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 12:46:31 PM »

Your little round thing is the fuel pressure sensor that was discussed earlier.  If your system is even close to stock, fuel comes in from the tank to the first filter, closest to the front of the engine, from there up to the fuel pump, back down to the secondary filter (the one with the pressure sensor on it) from there up to the cylinder head (driver's side) back and across to the passenger side cylinder head, then returns to the tank.  There is a close-off valve in the line to the first filter, make sure it's open.  I agree it sounds like you are getting air in somewhere and losing prime.

Brian
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 02:32:35 PM »

Haven't had a visit from a fuel thief? I have had a weak transfer pump act the same way.(twice)
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 03:02:43 PM »

The MCI has a low pressure fuel shut down I think it has to have 7# before it opens not sure about the pressure check the filters again and be sure they are full and reprime,


Ummm, no it doesn't. 

The sensor you are describing, and in the later post, which is located on the secondary filter is part of the emergency shutdown system. It's purpose is to cut off the current to the starter solenoid after the engine starts and fuel pressure comes up. This is there so that one can hold on the starter button to override the safety shutdown system while moving the coach to a safe location.

If the bus started, ran for 5 minutes, and then slowly died, the safety shutdown system is working. It shut down when air built up enough to activate the fuel shutoff cylinder.

You need to check your low oil pressure, low water sensor, and engine temp sensors (and maybe low oil level sensor). Remove the wire from each sensor and keep it from grounding to the engine or frame. Start the bus after removing each wire. When it runs longer than 5 minutes and air pressure builds up full, replace the last sensor whose wire you removed.

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 03:04:28 PM »

BTW, you should put your location in your profile. Heck, if you were close to me, I'd probably come over and help you figure it out....
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 04:18:14 PM »

i had the same experience just last week when i changed the low pressure fuel switch. then she ran just a few min then got shakey and died again, after repriming and a bit of eather each start she finally stayed running. don't know why but i had to prime it 3 times before it stayed running just my experience and i hope this helps ya.
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 04:19:57 PM »

Well that clears that up Gumpy I am not a MCI person although I have owned 2 and don't work on that bus those guys did some weird stuff,my 8 would not start till the fuel pressure came up hot or cold  


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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2010, 05:11:09 PM »

Just a Idea to ponder,

When I change out the fuel filters on any diesel powered machine the first step is to run the engine for a few minutes then change the filters and Run it again

never had any problem losing prime

Just my way

Chris
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 06:54:56 PM »

Well that clears that up Gumpy I am not a MCI person although I have owned 2 and don't work on that bus those guys did some weird stuff,my 8 would not start till the fuel pressure came up hot or cold  


good luck

Cliff,

If I understand you, you are saying that  your bus would start but would not stay running until fuel pressure came up. If you let up on the start button too soon, it would die. Is that
correct?   This is normal, and is actually not related to the fuel pressure, but is in fact caused by the low oil pressure switch activating the safety shutdown before oil pressure comes up.
By holding the start button in until the oil pressure comes up (i.e. the dash light goes out), you are effectively overriding the safety shutdown system until the oil pressure sensor says
it's all good.

That tells me your safety system was functioning properly (at least for the override and oil pressure switch).  Doesn't say anything about the fuel switch, unless you are sure it wasn't grinding
away at the starter while you waited for the oil pressure to come up.  Those fuel switches are notorious for malfunctioning. In fact, I have a new one in the bus that I need to install when
I get to warm weather next week.

craig
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 04:32:42 AM »

Those fuel switches are notorious for malfunctioning. In fact, I have a new one in the bus that I need to install when
I get to warm weather next week.
craig


When I first bought my coach it was bypassed by grounding it to an engine bolt.

I replaced it and had to do the same a few years later.   

Always good to know how to bypass a sensor failure, of course you better be darn sure its a sensor failure......

Cliff
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 07:53:57 PM »

Those fuel switches are notorious for malfunctioning. In fact, I have a new one in the bus that I need to install when
I get to warm weather next week.
craig


When I first bought my coach it was bypassed by grounding it to an engine bolt.

I replaced it and had to do the same a few years later.   

Always good to know how to bypass a sensor failure, of course you better be darn sure its a sensor failure......

Cliff

Yep, there's a permanent alligator clip hanging next to mine for the same reason. I've put 3 or 4 on since I've owned the coach. The last one broke and started leaking fuel all over the place.

You cannot ground the the other sensors (low water, low oil pressure, hot engine). Those sensors are normally open and close to ground when they activate, which completes the safety shutdown circuit.  But you can remove the wire and wrap it with electrical tape to keep it from grounding against the engine block. That will get you home.

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 06:17:25 AM »

Well here is a update! Thanks to Gumpy! we disconnected the Emergency shutoff and she fired right up and stayed running. Thanks You Gumpy!! and to everyone else who sent advice
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 06:29:32 AM »

Did you isolate the bad sensor?  Which one was it?

Gotta get that fixed. There's a reason that shutoff is there Smiley
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 06:35:29 AM »

Not Yet we are headed over shortly to Isolate the bad one and fix that broken wire Thanks for the picture , Hope to meet up with you on the road soon
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2010, 07:11:22 AM »

Started new post on this issue
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 07:46:17 AM by fredcliff » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2010, 07:26:25 AM »

Time to start a new thread on your new question. Lets not loose those the answer for the search feature. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2011, 09:06:00 PM »

Exactly how many of these sensors are there that can shut down the engine? The only one that I know where it is, is the low oil pressure sensor.

Jimmy
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2011, 06:34:54 AM »

There is a school of thought that would suggest disconnecting an auto shut down feature on a coach that the driver is also the bill payer.

Auto shut down was to protect the investment in equipment from hired drivers, who did not share the desire for economical operation... I know many, before, now and future, who would just keep driving it until it stopped moving, regardless of what was lit or ringing.

your coach, your choice!

happy coaching!
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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2011, 07:43:38 AM »

There is a school of thought that would suggest disconnecting an auto shut down feature on a coach that the driver is also the bill payer.

Auto shut down was to protect the investment in equipment from hired drivers, who did not share the desire for economical operation... I know many, before, now and future, who would just keep driving it until it stopped moving, regardless of what was lit or ringing.
your coach, your choice!
happy coaching!
buswarrior


BW you are so correct in all of this (especially the part about hired drivers that will keep going as long as it will regardless if it breaks in half! As long as the 1/2 they are in is still moving it's all still good right?)

Now on the part I made bold. Please take note of my of our very own bus guru's post!
I make note of this not to point fingers at, demean, or insult Craig in any way, but to bring light that as he is not only a talented & knowledgeable bus guru but a personal friend as well!
But rather to point out that we all regardless how much $ or time we've spent on these buses can get "comfy" and forget to pay as much attn as we should!

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=18447.msg200144#msg200144

Now... the rest of the nightmare... errr, story....
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2011, 09:12:44 PM »

"I feel stupid about missing this plug, even after explaining it to my friend who was helping me, but the reality of it is, this stuff can happen no matter how careful we are. This is one prime example of why the safety shutdown system on these buses should be in proper working order. When my compressor failed, it became obvious that I was not paying as close attention to my gauges as I thought I was. If I had not been paying close attention to them this time, and the safety shutdown system was not functioning, I could very easily have lost my engine.

See, I am not good for nothing. I can be used as an example.

Learn from my mistakes."

craig


Craig thank you for the complete & honest eye opener!
This is not to make you look or feel bad, but in both our own words AN EXAMPLE! (and not a bad one either! Wink)
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 08:04:27 AM »

On my bus the auto shut down and the alarms were both disabled.  The first thing I did when i got the bus was to re-establish the low air audible alarm buzzer, but I haven't done anything with the other alarms (other than buy new diodes so I could fix it all up).  I think a good compromise is to disable the auto shut down, but make very sure the audible alarm buzzer is hooked up and working for low air, low oil pressure and high water temperature, along with their respective warning dash lights.

Brian
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 09:52:22 AM »

Yes, let me qualify my earlier suggestion.

I most strongly recommend the warning systems be in working order, regardless of auto shut down use.

Then, the CHOICE is who shuts off the engine and where!

happy coaching!
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« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2011, 02:42:32 PM »

On my bus the auto shut down and the alarms were both disabled.  The first thing I did when i got the bus was to re-establish the low air audible alarm buzzer, but I haven't done anything with the other alarms (other than buy new diodes so I could fix it all up).  I think a good compromise is to disable the auto shut down, but make very sure the audible alarm buzzer is hooked up and working for low air, low oil pressure and high water temperature, along with their respective warning dash lights.

Brian

normally, I would have to agree with you on this. However, my experience with my own coach has shown me that the buzzer is not always trustworthy. In fact, right after my problem with my air compressor, while I was diagnosing the problem, I had drained most of the air from the system, but when I turned on the bus to start it back up and see if it was pumping, the buzzer did not go off. The lights on the dash were going, but bulbs can and do burn out, and depending on the orientation of you steering wheel spoke, you may not see the light (my punch list has changing the position of the steering wheel because of this, but it has not risen to the top of the priority list... or I just keep forgetting to do it). 

I can guarantee you it will get your attention when the engine shuts off!

The shutdown system is designed such that it can be overridden by holding in the start button so you are not necessarily stranded when it shuts down the engine.

And Bryce, I don't take offense or feel you were demeaning in your post. I have always said from day one of this hobby that I will do my best to document my successes and also my failures so that those around me and those coming after me can learn from me. If it means I look like a fool, well, then I guess there must be some truth to it.  I've never claimed to be an expert at any of this, and while I think I'm probably more skilled at some of this than the average bear, it's all a learning experience for me, too. That's why I keep JD's number on speed dial  Roll Eyes


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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »

while we are on the subject of warning buzzers. where might one find its location on an MC 7 as there is no buzzer that sounds when I start my bus and i know there should be one for the low air. I fear the PO may have disconnected it. I want it to work. but first i have to know where it should be located to check if it is wired still.

Thanks in advance

Mark
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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2011, 03:08:50 PM »

I have a bypass for my shut downs just in case a sensor fails and I need to get the bus going. It is wired into the step light switch.
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2011, 03:17:39 PM »

while we are on the subject of warning buzzers. where might one find its location on an MC 7 as there is no buzzer that sounds when I start my bus and i know there should be one for the low air. I fear the PO may have disconnected it. I want it to work. but first i have to know where it should be located to check if it is wired still.

Thanks in advance

Mark

Mark my memory is not the greatest when it comes to MCI's as I haven't worked on them much at all the last 4 or 5 yrs. But IIRC the buzzed is located in the electric panel/box outside below the drivers window.
I can't recall but I can assure you someone will chime in and tell us what post it comes off off.

I have a bypass for my shut downs just in case a sensor fails and I need to get the bus going. It is wired into the step light switch.

Good idea, but if it hasn't been monkeyed with MCI's came with an override from the factory where as long as there is oil pressure sensed it will continue to run while in shut down mode if you hold the start button down. (the oil pressure sensor keeps the starter from engaging while doing this.)

FWIW Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2011, 04:30:48 PM »

BK

              Your right on the override but its  fuel psi not oil psi


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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2011, 06:03:19 PM »

MCI MC series buzzer is on the drivers electrical panel, standing beside the bus looking at the panel it's at the upper right corner.  It was my understanding that DOT required an audible low air alarm, but it may be that a warning light is as much as is needed.  Daily inspection includes testing and noting the pressure at which the low air alarm turns off when the bus is airing up, and the pressure at which it comes back on when fanning the brakes to cause the pressure to fall.  It should go off at 85 psi on the way up, and come on at 60 psi on the way down.  I test that daily before moving the bus.  The same  buzzer is supposed to be connected so that it buzzes if low oil pressure or high water temperature alarms go off.

Brian
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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2011, 06:07:37 PM »

thank you bk and Brian. i will look for that when the sun is upon Florida tomarrow.

Mark
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