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Author Topic: Lots Of Smoke When Trying To Start...  (Read 4708 times)
Frank @ TX
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2010, 07:41:40 AM »

luvrbus,
I have a 6V92 and only below 20* does it need more than that first start.
BUT what is the "starting aid adjustment" you spoke about.
Frank
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bevans6
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2010, 08:19:56 AM »

When the engine is stopped, the governor puts the fuel racks in the full fuel position.  On non-turbo engines, the racks are at full fuel while cranking  and go to idle position as soon as the engine is running.  On turbo engines there is a starting aid screw to limit fuel input during starting.  When you are looking at the governor, it's on the upper right hand corner facing you.  I have no clue how to adjust it, I'm just reading the manual...   It does say for natural engines back it out all the way to defeat it.  Prior to 1974, turbo engines had an internal starting aid device.

just reading the manual on Christmas Eve, so I don''t have a life...   Grin

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2010, 10:42:34 AM »

With the turbo engine from the factory, you have 17 to one compression pistons-compared to 18.7 to one on non turbo'ed engines.  Hence you won't create quite as much heat when cranking when it is cold-the results-unburned Diesel fuel in the form of white smoke.  One of the ways to start a cold 2 stroke engine is to start it from the rear.  What you do is to turn on the ignition, then hold the stop lever on the governor in the stopped position with your finger then start cranking the engine (while watching not to get entangled in the fan belt).  After 5 seconds of cranking and continuing to crank, slowly release the stop lever on the governor and the engine will just come up to speed.  This works because the stop lever not only stops the engine, but it retards the timing in the injectors facilitating better starting in cold weather.  I do it all the time with my 8V-71 turbo.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2010, 04:18:23 PM »

With the turbo engine from the factory, you have 17 to one compression pistons-compared to 18.7 to one on non turbo'ed engines.  Hence you won't create quite as much heat when cranking when it is cold-the results-unburned Diesel fuel in the form of white smoke.  One of the ways to start a cold 2 stroke engine is to start it from the rear.  What you do is to turn on the ignition, then hold the stop lever on the governor in the stopped position with your finger then start cranking the engine (while watching not to get entangled in the fan belt).  After 5 seconds of cranking and continuing to crank, slowly release the stop lever on the governor and the engine will just come up to speed.  This works because the stop lever not only stops the engine, but it retards the timing in the injectors facilitating better starting in cold weather.  I do it all the time with my 8V-71 turbo.  Good Luck, TomC

Stupid question... but where is the stop lever on the governor located???
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2010, 04:23:57 PM »

Quote from: Highway Yacht

Stupid question... but where is the stop lever on the governor located???

Yacht the only stupid question is the one not asked!
If you'll look directly between the fan belt on you MCI there on top of the engine there is a little air cylinder that pushes out on a lever. That lever is the shut down lever and it won't push out without air, unless you manually push it.
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2010, 08:18:54 PM »

Quote from: Highway Yacht

Stupid question... but where is the stop lever on the governor located???

Yacht the only stupid question is the one not asked!
If you'll look directly between the fan belt on you MCI there on top of the engine there is a little air cylinder that pushes out on a lever. That lever is the shut down lever and it won't push out without air, unless you manually push it.
Grin  BK  Grin

Ok...thanks BK...I know where that is. I did not know that was the governor tho.. I thought the shut down lever only cut off the air intake and I had no idea it would retard the timing to the injectors... I will give it a try..

Jimmy

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1979 MC-9  8V71-Turbo / HT740             * www.MciBusTalk.com *
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NJT5047
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2010, 10:26:25 PM »

Just plug in your block heater.  Problem solved. 
Jimmy, you're leaving out the "low" temps of our NC nights....That's the problem!    Temps lately about 20*.    This is  a faux paw of the 'bama folk.  Little mistake on perception of the Global warning thingy....good luck.    Those engines soak up the teens degrees and it takes a day in the sunshine to un-freeze the engine.   Call me if you need information on installing a block heater if you don't have one.  You need one.  I installed a block heater into my 6V92TA and had excellent results.  Cranks clean and ready to go.  Even the heaters are cooking!  sucker used to smoke up the barn...big time!  Looked like it was on fire for a bit. 
The cold diesel smoke (unburned fuel) really doesn't mean a thing.  As long as it clears within a minute or so.   Cold diesels are not efficient. 
 
As someone said (Tom, he's the turbo guru), if you have a 'real' turbo engine, it has 17/18 to 1 compression ratio, which means harder starts in cold weather.
8V71NA's have about 21/1 compression.  The NA's will (generally) start better in cold weather because of their higher compression.   
A block heater will solve all of your problems.   If you don't have one, get one.  They are not expensive, and if you wish to crank it during bitter cold weather, a block heater is your friend.     
On the downside, a very well worn engine will smoke like H and take forever to clear up.  Bitter cold weather will screw all over worn diesel engines.  But it will eventually run normally.  A block heater bring will them back to life fast! 
It's past my bedtime, and I've maxed on adult Christmas beverages.  Some guy in a red suit was supposed to drink these things...but nooooo. Here I sit.  Now I gotta get rid of them!    Roll Eyes
Jimmy give me a call sometime at 704 650 0235.   I'll be available anytime other than Wed AM and Thursday AM.  I change hats and become Mr. RN on those days.  Otherwise I'm retarded from work and almost always looking for someone to eat lunch with! 
I'm only half hour from you.  I'd like to see your coach up close!   We may have spoken in the past....need to get together and compare ideas! 

Merry Christmas to you dudes!   JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

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« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 05:26:30 AM »

Yes JR.. We spoke a few months ago. I'm the one who works in Monroe. I've been meaning to catch back up with you to see your bus to gets some ideas and advice but was waiting on it to get a little warmer. I will definately give you a call once it does warm back up. I'm still early in the learning process. As far as the smoke, she clears up almost the second she starts. It is definately a "real" turbo 8V71. Detroit says the serial number tells them it is a 1987 8V71T surplus Military Tank Engine. Don Fairchild was nice enough to also run the numbers and said it was a 350HP engine with the N-90 injectors. I do not have a block heater yet but will put that on my wish list.
Hope you are ready for the SNOW!!!!!.. Sounds like it is on the way for us later today..

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luvrbus
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« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 07:15:57 AM »

H-Y just so you know some of the military 8v71T were 15:1 compression and a real bear to start around 0 degrees with your's blowing that much smoke at 50 degrees you probably have the 15:1 


good luck
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 07:30:13 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2010, 09:00:44 AM »

Compression ratios on various 2 stroke engines.  53 series Natural were 21 to one; Turbos were 18 to one.  71 series Naturals were 18.7 to one; turbos were 17 to one.  92 series Naturals were 19 to one; turbos were 17 to one.  Higher the compression-easier it is to start when cold.  I retained my 18.7 to one Natural pistons, but only used 75 injectors and a waste gated turbo from a 12.7 liter Series 60 to keep boost down to around 15 psi.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2010, 11:11:48 AM »


  Thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in, not only cold conditions, unburnt fuel, LOW CETANE will also make it smoke!


    Steve 5B.......       MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE..........
   
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« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2010, 07:27:45 PM »

I am now officially stuck in my chair...ate too much!  Gads.   Fortunately, the laptop is within reach!
Jimmy, if you're trying to start the coach to move it, or for some other reason, go for it.  Otherwise, I'd let it sit.  Unless you plan to run down the highway and place a load on the engine long enough to bring the oil up to normal operating temp, cranking it just to see if it'll start is not especially good for the engine.  It'll never warm up idling.  Sitting over the few winter months won't hurt the engine...not as long as water isn't dripping onto the engine from rain and snow.  If you just gotta crank it without a block heater, charge the batteries up fully and crank it in 4 second bursts with a little rest between.  That'll 'heat-sink' the combustion chambers and it'll light up eventually.   This is rough on starters...40 wt oil is like sludge (not really, but it's pretty heavy)  in our recent arctic temps.    A work light placed beneath the oil pan will warm the oil.  You gotta watch that...work lights get hot.   And, while not the best of ideas, if you just gotta start it, a shot of ether should do the trick.  If all that fails, you can punch a few air holes in a big coffee can full of charcoal, light the charcoal    Shocked  .....nevermind.  Don't do that.     
If you buy a block heater, buy a unit designed for an 8V71.   Don't dink with oil pan mats, dipstick heaters, or coolant hose heaters.
It's much better to warm the coolant with a properly designed block heater than to heat the oil. 
My 6V92 required that the coolant be removed when installing a block heater.  Someone can clear this up, but I believe some '71s use a pipe plug style heater which could be installed without draining the coolant.  It'll get messy, but it can be done.
'92 series use a plate style heater that' situated on side of the crankcase behind the dipstick.
You probably know this, but don't be tempted to change the 40wt to "winter" or multi-viscosity oil.  40wt is correct for your use.  Even in the winter. 
Give me a call at 704 650 0235 about anytime.   
Oh well, back to watching the snow fall!   JR  Cool     
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

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« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2010, 07:35:35 PM »


  Thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in, not only cold conditions, unburnt fuel, LOW CETANE will also make it smoke!


    Steve 5B.......       MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE..........

Unburnt fuel is what make the clouds of white smoke during and following cranking attempts.   Rough idle right after startup also adds to the unburnt fuel smoke.  Often as not, only a few cylinders light in a really cold engine...smokes until all cylinders light up. 
While not beneficial, white smoke that clears up once all cylinders are running following a cold start doesn't indicate a problem either.   
JR
   
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.

Ayn Rand
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« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2010, 07:50:26 PM »

71 and 92 series take the same block heater goes on the right side just above the oil pan 4 bolts and the system needs to be drained


good luck
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« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2010, 07:57:06 PM »

The 92 series in many RTS's, including mine, have a connection to the transmission cooler connected to that port.  So on mine the block heater is in a pipe threaded port in the end of the cylinder head (it might be right below the head, without going out to look at it, but that is the general area).  It's a little slower heating like that but it works like a charm.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 07:59:24 PM by HighTechRedneck » Logged
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