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Author Topic: Yet another adventurous (read troublesome) trip...  (Read 3581 times)
gumpy
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« on: December 24, 2010, 07:32:07 AM »

At the risk of getting flamed for what I did yesterday, I decided to post this anyway.

Gonna have to stop making this trip. Seems like every time I come to CO I have problems with the bus.

We left MN on Wed. Stayed in a great little campground in Stromsburg NE. It was free (offers accepted). There were only 3 trains on the tracks nearby throughout the night.
Weather was actually decent and we had a patch of sun and blue sky for about 5 miles.

Yesterday, headed south into KS and picked up 70 at Salina. West to Oakley and Hwy 40. Things were going pretty well. When the GPS showed 777 on the mileage, I commented
that we just hit the jackpot, where's my payout. Teri said the payout was good weather and not having ice and show on the roads.

As I exited 70 at Oakley, all hell broke loose! Buzzers, lights. Crap!

I thought I was pretty good about watching my gauges. I guess not, because when I looked down due to the commotion, the NOT GEN light and LOW AIR light were both on.
The air gauge showed 60 lbs. I assumed catastrophic failure of something related to a leak I had heard up near the drivers earlier. It's been there awhile and I haven't had time to
crawl under and investigate. That, and it seems to come and go, so I tend to forget about it. I think it's probably related to my leveling setup.

So, that could not have been a better place to have a failure. I was able to get off the interstate, and into the truck stop on just on the other side. I walked around listening for the telltale sound of air coming from some blown something. Nothing. Turn off the bus and make another walk around. Nothing. Start it back up. Nothing. There just wasn't any air coming out anyplace!

I decided to pull over to the truck stop and use their shop air to diagnose, but by then, there wasn't enough air in the system to release the brakes. So I start the process of elimination.
In short order, I decided I was not pumping air at all. I called JD at C&J to ask for advice. He is one of the greatest friends a busnut could have. We discussed it and he walked me thorough checking the valves in the compressor. He even sent me a photo of what they should look like. We had to break into one of the Christmas presents to get it downloaded from my daughter's phone so I could enlarge it and actually see it, but we got it. The valves were in the proper position, but no air was coming out, so it looked like the compressor was not! I already knew that, as I had pulled the discharge line and confirmed there was nothing.

Well, to shorten a long story, We made it to Pueblo. I now own a new $185 portable oil-less air compressor (amazing how small Oakley is when you need something special) which will probably become a permanent part of the bus soon (there were already plans for that, but just didn't get to it this fall). I have my spare bus compressor on the way thanks to my great neighbor and UPS. It will be here by Thursday. My Father-In-Law has a shop here big enough to get the bus in, and I was going to do that anyway to rotate the rear drives and look for that aforementioned air leak.

My only concern is that the problem might be in the engine, rather than the compressor, so keeping my fingers crossed. Won't know till I take it off next week. Really hoping a pin fell out of the compressor gear or something stupid like that.

For those of you who think this was not a safe thing to do, please save your breath. I don't intend to debate it. There was no chance of getting help in Oakley. The truck stop said they don't work on air compressors. The portable compressor cycled every 16 minutes due to normal use and a few leaks in the system. The pressure switch and regulator on the portable kept the pressure in the bus system between 100 (higher than the bus governor) and 117 psi and the portable had a small reserve up to 135 psi. So safety was not compromised in any way. If I had felt it was, I would never have left that truck stop.

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2010, 08:03:44 AM »

Craig,
Good luck finding and fixing it.
Hopefully it will be an easy fix such as a broken keyway. But if it is a broken keyway something most likely caused it to break.
Now on the other hand it could also be the gear itself if you still have the fiber gear. They are notorious for breaking and my experience has been usually when it is/has been cold out. If it is the fiber gear, get a modern (metal) replacement for it! (you'll never have any trouble out of the meatl one {except maybe shearing a keyway)
And if it is the compressor itself at least you have one on the way!
And if the spare one has a problem too, I have one that works, but passes a fair amount of oil. (we keep it strictly as a spare!)
Or worst case scenario http://www.priorreman.com/ has always had what I needed and treated us fair! (we had a couple problems right in a row, but they were very good about warranting them!)
Good luck and holler if you need anything I can help with!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2010, 08:12:04 AM »

You're right, we had the debate on this already and I don't think we need to do it again.  Very glad you caught it where you did, would have been a lot worse if you'd lost air pressure at 70 mph on the interstate just as you started to slow to to make an exit.  At 60 psi your low air buzzer might not have triggered yet, although mine goes off when the generator does (same basic trigger system I think).

Brian

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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 08:18:53 AM »

You're right, we had the debate on this already and I don't think we need to do it again.  Very glad you caught it where you did, would have been a lot worse if you'd lost air pressure at 70 mph on the interstate just as you started to slow to to make an exit.  At 60 psi your low air buzzer might not have triggered yet, although mine goes off when the generator does (same basic trigger system I think).

Brian

Brian,
You are right about the low air buzzer usually coming on when the not gen light does. But over the many yrs some shops have actually done away with the low air light/buzzer connection. Reason being many times they have done away the delay of the generator starting to charge until 100 psi. And have it to where it is charging from the start. (but the light still shows not gen until proper psi is reached, not knowing the difference)

I have experienced this on many older MCI's I have worked on in the past.
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 09:07:24 AM »

After reading this I had memories of when I lost our air compressor back in '06 on the way to Abilene. I hooked up the portable I had and got it off the off ramp in Palm Springs. Gosh, what memories! Wink

Hope your trip goes better!

Paul
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 12:24:17 PM »

I know the spot in oakley. Been there many times on my bike watching the "Run to the Wall" bikers come through every Memorial weekend. Glad to see you made it and hope all goes well.
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 05:55:05 AM »

We have a new air compressor!  My spare arrive via UPS on Wed evening. On Thursday, I pulled the bus into my father-in-law's shop. When he built this place, he called me and asked how long and tall my bus was and spec'd the shop large enough to pull my bus in and close the door. I've only had it in there about 3 times prior, and this is the only time we've closed the door, but I was very happy as the weather was changing here rapidly, and getting colder (in fact, we have about 4 inches of snow on the ground this morning). Anyway, I pulled the old compressor away from the motor before disconnecting the coolant and oil lines to see if I could see a problem. Sure enough, when the spline connector that connects the compressor crank to the engine cam shaft came out, if had a large piece of the compressor crank gear still attached. The fiber crank gear was busted. Fortunately, it appears only a small chunk fell down into the engine and there appears to be no damage to the engine side.

I then drained the engine of coolant, removed the coolant and oil lines, and disconnected the governor and intake manifold. I lifted the old compressor up through the hole in the floor,  transferred all the fittings from the old to the new, plugged all the holes that were not used, and cleaned up the gasket surfaces. I then set the new one back through the hole and with some difficulty, mostly caused by the need to contort my less than flexible body around the engine compartment, I was able to get the new compressor to slide onto the studs in the engine housing. Surprisingly, the splined connector lined up with the compressor gearand they slid together. Added the nuts and washers, tightened it down, and connected the coolant and oil lines and reinstalled the governor and intake manifold. Before connecting the output hose, I spun the engine without starting it to pump a bit of oil into the compressor and also to verify that it was pumping air. Then I refilled the engine coolant, connected the output hose to the compressor, and fired it up. It pumped up to 120 and all seems well with it now.

This description makes it sound simple, and it was not difficult, just time consuming. It took most of the day to replace it, but I was not in a hurry as we had no place else to be. I'm very glad my father-in-law has the shop that will fit my bus. This would have been a 2 or 3 day job outside in the cold.

Happy to have the new compressor on. Now we can return home with a normally operating bus, as opposed to the alternative  Roll Eyes

I'll post a few photos of the broken compressor gear later when I get them off the camera.
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2010, 06:57:28 AM »

Sorry, Craig. I couldn't resist.

In case the caption doesn't come through, it says: "Skipper says he wants to sail in 20 minutes. Is that O. K.?"

Hope you get it worked out!
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2010, 07:17:53 AM »


     Craig,

     Did you have alot of miles on that, I would assume that it wasn't the original?


    Steve 5B.......
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2010, 07:35:12 AM »

Happy New Year

Yep had my say on the Aux compressor and glade you were able to get to where you could do the job SAFELY. I have been working in my garage last few days on my pickup. It nice to be out of the weather. I don't have indoor space for the bus and I am not about to work on it till spring comes. Hope all is well and these SMALL problems just eat up time and not a lot of money. I spent a few hours on the side of the road when we went to Montana last summer. It seems to part of the gig.

John
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 08:55:20 AM »

Its a little late now but my nylon gear broke with the PO was replaced with a steel gear. except they didn't clean it out very well and it locked up the engine . a lot of trouble  for not going a small step more when it happened.
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 11:15:28 AM »

Its a little late now but my nylon gear broke with the PO was replaced with a steel gear. except they didn't clean it out very well and it locked up the engine . a lot of trouble  for not going a small step more when it happened.

What caused the engine lockup?  Was it the debris from the fiber gear? or was it that the compressor was seized and putting the steel gear caused cam shaft damage in the engine?

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 11:17:35 AM »


     Craig,

     Did you have alot of miles on that, I would assume that it wasn't the original?


    Steve 5B.......

Well, I don't know the full history. This was the compressor that the previous owner installed on the engine when he put the new engine in, just before I purchased the bus. My
understanding is that he had rebuilt the compressor. I've put about 70K on it since and have had no problems with the compressor or signs that there might be problems until
it broke.

craig

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 05:47:42 PM »

.



Happy to have the new compressor on. Now we can return home with a normally operating bus, as opposed to the alternative  Roll Eyes



Normally operating bus Huh Don't think I've ever met one of those!   JIm
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2010, 08:51:02 PM »

The fiber connector loose in the engine will not hurt it. I have spoken to many mechanics that have said "no big deal" if you accidentally loose it as you take out the compressor. They drop to the oil pan and just stay there. A bigger concern would be to have a compressor fail by lockup and wipe out the gears. Then you get to take your engine apart - No joy!
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2010, 09:53:56 PM »

The fiber connector loose in the engine will not hurt it. I have spoken to many mechanics that have said "no big deal" if you accidentally loose it as you take out the compressor. They drop to the oil pan and just stay there. A bigger concern would be to have a compressor fail by lockup and wipe out the gears. Then you get to take your engine apart - No joy!

Yeah, I was wondering about that. At least with the fiber gear, if the compressor locks up, the gear will give. With the metal gear, it's a toss up whether the compressor will win, or the engine cam shaft. Either way, it can't be pretty, and could cost an engine.

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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2011, 05:27:24 AM »

Compressors have a safety key to prevent that from happening with the metal drive drive DD has not used the fiber drive since 1984 if you need something to worry about the gear driven alternator is a good one,fwiw never have I saw a fiber gear drive for a compressor on 92 series engine  


good luck
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« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2011, 05:34:26 AM »

Gumpy, what actually failed in your setup?  Did the compressor lock up and start things, or  did the fiber gear break up?  You mention that the compressor gear also broke - is that the metal female splined gear on the crankshaft of the compressor?

thanks, Brian
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2011, 05:45:45 PM »

Gumpy, what actually failed in your setup?  Did the compressor lock up and start things, or  did the fiber gear break up?  You mention that the compressor gear also broke - is that the metal female splined gear on the crankshaft of the compressor?

thanks, Brian

The fiber gear on the end of the compressor shaft failed.

Here's a photo...
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2011, 06:12:44 PM »

So here's the rest of the story... 

I replaced the compressor on the bus. Took the old one out and swapped fittings to the new one. Then spend a good amount of time plugging all the extra holes in the new compressor. There must be 15 dozen holes in that thing that are not used. All for different installations, I assume. Most of them had plugs that were hand tight in the holes, and I compared to old one to the new one to determine which ones got plugged and which ones didn't, and where the fittings went from the old own and even the orientation so the lines would mate up. Did I mention there must be 15 dozen holes!  I even had a helper who was being as diligent as I was about getting all the holes filled. I even told him a story of a fellow who bought a new compressor that had some of those red plastic plugs in the holes that had been painted over with black paint. He had missed one, and the plug had come out when he was driving, and dumped all his oil out and he lost his engine.

Well....  guess what?? 

Did I mention there must be 15 dozen holes in that thing?

I changed that thing and aired it up in the shop. No leaks. The compressor must have cycled 4 or 5 times as I backed it out and parked by the house. No leaks. We spent a couple more nights in it, and when we got ready to leave, I aired it up, turned around and pulled out on the snow covered driveway to hook up the car. No leaks. No leaks in the dirt. No leaks in the snow. No leaks.

We said our goodbyes and left. It's 2 miles to the interstate and the road was icy and the bus was not fully warmed up, so I didn't get over 25 mph or so. When I got to the interstate, I accelerated to 65. It's about 9 miles of interstate to Pueblo.  About 4 miles down the road, I noticed the oil pressure had dropped for 50 to about 30. As I watched, it kept dropping. I knew something was terribly wrong and was trying to get it to the exit to get off the interstate. Didn't make it. Decided to pull off the side when it fell below 25 psi. Just as I pulled to a stop, the low oil light and buzzer came on and the engine died (well, at least I know that sensor works!). I went back, knowing full well what I was going to find. Sure enough, there was black gold all over my transmission and running down both sides and onto the highway (and the toad).

I saw nothing obvious from the engine bay door, so opened the floor hatch. I immediately saw that there was a tiny little plug missing from the oil port on the bottom of the compressor. As near as I can figure, there must have been a plastic plug in that port that popped out when I finally got the engine up to highway speed and the oil pressure came up to 50 psi.

Maybe if the new compressor did not have the metal plugs in it I might not have missed this as I would have had to move all the plugs from the old one to the new one, but I guess I was so busy putting in the plugs that were already hand tight in the new compressor and moving fittings from the old compressor to the new one I somehow missed that little oil port. That little oil port dumped 3 gallons of my oil out in a matter of minutes!

I pulled the plug from the old compressor and put it in the hole in the new one and then put in 4 gallons of fresh oil (it was already down some before this happened). We found a truck wash a few miles down the road and cleaned off as much oil from the car and engine, creating a small environmental disaster which I'll blame on BP and Halliburton, and headed on down the road. My oil pressure even came up to 55-60 lbs for much of the trip home. Probably all that fresh oil in the system.

Fortunately, no harm done to the engine or compressor as I caught it in time, but this could have turned out very badly for me. 

I feel stupid about missing this plug, even after explaining it to my friend who was helping me, but the reality of it is, this stuff can happen no matter how careful we are. This is one prime example of why the safety shutdown system on these buses should be in proper working order. When my compressor failed, it became obvious that I was not paying as close attention to my gauges as I thought I was. If I had not been paying close attention to them this time, and the safety shutdown system was not functioning, I could very easily have lost my engine.

See, I am not good for nothing. I can be used as an example.

Learn from my mistakes.

craig

 
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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 12:29:08 AM »

Craig,

Glad this is corrected and behind you now. Excellent, informative write up, of which I am more knowledgable as to compressor failures.

Take away for me is 15 Dozen and one holes.

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« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2011, 06:47:36 AM »

yep I am glade my safety system is working on my 9 also. I was watching my engine temperature raise last summer while I was trying to get pulled over and just as I came to a stop the engine shut itself down before any damage was done. I think it may have shutdown a little early but was glade to see it work.

John
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« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2011, 08:24:40 PM »

I think that was my buddy Joe that you were thinking of...fresh rebuild, taking her on a shakedown cruise and he forgets one plug. He had to completely rebuild his motor again and he had put less than 5 miles on it. That's why we shouldn't jury rig our shutdown systems.
Glad you caught it Craig. You would've been one grouchy dude if you would have lost your motor.
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2011, 10:57:52 PM »

The fiber gear on mine looks nothing like the one on your bus. I didn't know there was a difference. Mine looks more like a small disk and has more in common with a love-joy coupling.
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« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2011, 05:32:59 AM »

I think that fiber gear is an MCI thing.  The compressor is unique to MCI, I think - the catalog shows it as an MCI configuration.  On mine, the gear is steel, probably fitted during maintenance.  The compressor is a 700, when a 600 was stock fitment. 

Gumpy, did the compressor lock up or fail to cause the gear to break up, or was it really the gear that failed?

Brian
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2011, 10:32:47 AM »

The gear failed, but I don't know why yet. I have not tried to determine if the compressor locked up or not. Will look at that when it warms up here and I
figure out if I can rebuild it for a spare or not.
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Craig Shepard
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