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Author Topic: My DD-3 brake chamber experience.......(1964 PD4106 GM Bus)....  (Read 5737 times)
busenthusiast
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« on: December 28, 2010, 03:36:11 PM »

Hey folks, thought I'd start a new post to show my progress with the removal and disassembly of my DD-3 brake actuator. I'll try to keep adding pics as I get parts from Luke for the rebuild. Let me know what you think....

Here's my blocking and cribbing technique....


Pics of the can before removal...


Push rod to slack adjuster connection....


Pin removed from yoke and adjuster...


Can unbolted from frame...


Ahhhh.....removed at last...


On the table in my shop, ready for disassembly...


Another angle...


Auxiliary clamp ring loose...


Auxiliary pressure plate and diaphragm removed...


Service clamp ring loose...


Service pressure plate and diaphragm removed...


Here's a look at where my push plate shaft exits the non-pressure plate....looks a little damaged huh...and yes, there is supposed to a boot here... Smiley


Had some trouble getting one of the mounting studs loose...


Here's a view with the spash guard removed.....nasty...


Lock cap unbolted...


This thing is in bad shape...


Here's what's left of the rollers...actually a few of them appear to be OK....


Here's a close up of the rollers removed....the one to the right is a good example of how they shouldn't look...


A view of the push plate and shaft from the inside of the non-pressure plate


Here's a shot of the collar removed with the piston still installed...the rollers fit between the two...


This is a close-up of one of the main reasons for not being able to get my brakes to release.....a special hats off to the previous owner for not keep up with periodic maintenance....


And last, but not least, my own version of an exploded view....


I've got my part list created and I'll be giving Luke a call tomorrow to see what the damage is. I've actually had fun (considering what I've had to do). It really wasn't all that bad. I would definitely recommend this approach to anyone who has the mechanical background and the tools necessary to get the job done. And I would like to thank all those who helped me in this post ----->http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=18442.0.....without your help, I couldn't have made it this far....


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Rick 74 MC-8
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 05:38:49 PM »

Great pics Is one of the diaphragms ruptured?

                                                        Rick 74 MC-8
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 05:46:43 PM »

Nah...the diaphragms looks good.....no dry rotting or cracks at all. It looked as if the can had been rebuilt in the past. I'm guessing that the roller condition was causing the whole problem....at least I hope so anyway.
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Rick 74 MC-8
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 05:52:23 PM »

Didn't you have air escaping until it popped the parking valve




                                                        Rick 74 MC-8
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 06:00:21 PM »



Wow those pictures were great.  Thanks for taking the time!!!

Art
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Art & Cheryll Gill
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 06:01:23 PM »

Yeah I did. It was leaking from around the rear of the can where the push plate shaft exited. As far as I can tell, when you push in the park brake valve, the lock port air line is pressurized which supplies air to the back of the piston to relieve the rollers and the mechanical lock they apply to the push plate shaft. I can only assume that the air was leaking past the piston sealing ring because the rollers were locked in place (due to rust and corrosion).



Edit: After posting and reading, I'm wondering, did that make any sense?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 06:08:09 PM by bwze » Logged
gmbusguy1
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 06:02:23 PM »

Great job Billy !!!!!!

keep up the good work

most of the damage that I can see in the photos looks like it is from moisture in the air system. of course sitting and no grease does not help either.

also you are going to need new airbags very soon as the front one in your pictures looks like it is frayed and could leak anytime they are very easy to r and r

keep in mind that everything you do to fix a bus is DONE for a very long time

Thanks for posting this work

Chris
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 06:08:56 PM »

Excellent job documenting the job...I always get too busy wrenching and only think of pics when the job is done.  since you have the wheel off might as well change the front bag, rear looks good though.
 Also to any following this post, while bwze's method is the best for pics and clarity, one can also remove the brake cans by driving the bus up on ramps/blocking etc...chocking the wheels and squirming underneath....
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 06:10:08 PM »

Billy, I think you should replace the Inversion Probably the leak you think is the can and replace all the rubber stuff you run into under there

Just my way

Chris
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 06:11:26 PM »

Thanks Chris. Yeah, I know the bags need to be replaced. Luckily, the previous owner had purchased a complete set for front and rear. I'm thinking that since I have the wheels off and I'm this far in, that I'll just go ahead and replace them. Seems like the best time to do it......
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 06:19:41 PM »

Billy , Great job of documenting this procedure. You have made someones job in the future much simpler. as gmbus and zubzub both said the frayed airbag looks like its time. Thanks for sharing!
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John O
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2010, 07:07:26 PM »

A most excellent presentation! One of the best I've seen!

This should be an article in BCM for sure!

Great job!

Paul
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2010, 08:36:47 PM »

Billy,

Very nice job! I second Dreamscape's mention of an article in BCM.

A couple of suggestions:

You might want to crib under the beam where your jack is. Cribbing under the end of the axle means you can't turn the drum when you adjust the brakes.

It's a good idea to mark the parking and service chambers before you remove them, so you can get them "clocked" correctly on assembly. You may have done this, but it didn't look like it. If you didn't, your excellent pictures should help  you figure this out.

I see some cracks in your service diaphragm around the circumference where it seals on the chamber. I would examine them very closely and consider replacing them.

In addition to the inversion valve, I would seriously consider replacing the relay valve, as well. There's a good chance the insides of both look like your brake chamber. You might consult Luke on this when you talk to him.

I also would encourage you to replace the airbags while you're there, especially if you have them "in stock".

Bob
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2010, 11:32:24 PM »

BWZE:: the worst part of changing air bags is getting to where you are now I would change them now. you will be set for several years. Beats changing one on the road some where.      papa T
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 03:17:24 AM »

Bob and Chris, I do plan to remove and replace both the inversion and relay valve(unless they are in good condition and can be rebuilt).....and change all the air hoses in this compartment...

Chris, I do have it cribbed under the axle. You can't really see in the pictures. I blocked out on the end of the axle to give me some added feeling of security. Unfortunately, I'm working off of the ground and whatever this point of the bus weighs (I estimated around 6000#), it was enough to drive my jack, and the larger piece of 3/4" plywood beneath it, down about an inch. I ended up finding some larger pieces of steel to use as a bed plate for my jack, and all of the cribbing, to help distribute the weight evenly to minimize the sinking issue. I also decided to leave the jack in there for good measure too...

I sure hope this helps someone in the future. I plan to do this with all the big jobs I end up doing on the bus.....like replacing air bags.....
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 06:07:19 AM »

Thanks for documenting this, Billy.  Although my bus is different in lots of details, it's really good to see what other people have done -- experience is the best education (esp. other people's experience).
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 06:52:38 AM »

Fantastic job of documenting the job! The rest of us need to take note and make an attempt to do the same when we have repairs to make. If you don't want to go back to DD3s, now would be a good time to move your mounts and go with common spring brakes.

Photo of my setup:

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L. Christley - W3EYE Amateur Extra
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 06:59:39 AM »

I thought long and hard about whether I wanted to convert to spring brakes. When I talked with Luke, he recommended that I stay with the DD-3's. That way I won't have any re-plumbing to worry about. Hopefully when I rebuild these, I won't have to worry about them for quite some time.
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2010, 07:01:57 AM »

LED headlamp, one of the best tools ever made, as good as a third hand:

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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2010, 07:18:26 AM »

Even looking at the pictures I do not feel comfortable being able to recognize a DD3 versus a Spring brake chamber. Are they marked "DD3" or "Spring brake". I'd like more confidence in my ability to idenifty one before I started disassembling it!

Boyce
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Boyce Rampey
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2010, 07:32:14 AM »

rampeyboy, although I haven't seen one personally (spring brake chamber), I've been told that you can tell the difference by counting the number of air lines that go to your chamber. DD-3's use three air lines and springs use two.....

Barn Owl, you're dead right about the headlamp....
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 07:37:14 AM »

What a great post. Thanks for the "crash course". Invaluable info for my 06. I'm sure you could have used the time you spent documenting this for your own needs. This is truly a very unselfish as well as generous deed. I for one can't thank you enough.
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Mike AKA; Red Rider 4106-1885
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 07:39:25 AM »

Quote from: bwze
I sure hope this helps someone in the future. I plan to do this with all the big jobs I end up doing on the bus.....like replacing air bags.....

Billy,

Maybe you want to start your own website to post pictures and writeups about what you have done. Several on here have done that and it is a great way to find a specific project. Check out Gumpy's site, it has lots of his projects written up like you are doing here.

Thanks for all the info in this thread.

Mike
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2010, 08:02:55 AM »

Mike, I actually started a blog a couple of days ago for just this purpose. As soon as I can get some of this done, I plan of formatting the whole procedure, as best I can, and publishing it. When I get it finished, I'll link to it my signature.....
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 01:23:07 PM »

As a new owner of DD3s I want to be sure I understand this correctly - the lack of PO maintenance was in not greasing the rollers??

Your photos make the DD3 roller setup much clearer, the Manual cross section makes it a bit hard to understand.

Thanks for your well done photos.

It will be interesting to see your bill for parts vs a rebuilt assembly!
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2010, 03:39:10 PM »

Gus, I can't say that the PO's lack of greasing the rollers was a contributing factor to the condition they were in (mainly because there isn't a zerk fitting to apply grease to the rollers), but definitely that he did not notice that there was not a boot installed that allowed the rollers to be in direct contact with atmospheric conditions. This was, IMHO, not allowable....but I digress.

Now I know a lot of you out there are really gonna jump on me for this, but I made this decision based on close and careful observation, a small discussion with Luke and lastly, monetary reasons. I've decided not to replace the diaphragms in this actuator.......Now for my reasons. The diaphragms, even though they look bad in the photos I posted, are actually not in bad shape at all. They are still very pliable and the "cracks" that appear to be present in the photos are actually wrinkles. When examined closely, they have not started to crack at all. This along with the fact that it was gonna be over double the cost to purchase and replace them.....(sure hope you guys/gals don't jump on me too bad). I ended up getting all the smaller parts that were corroded beyond use and a few of the items I damaged during removal, but opted to pass on the rubber. My cost went from $150 (without diaphragm) to $325 (with diaphragm), and while I'm not really living in the poor house, I definitely consider it in my neighborhood. I will keep up with a stringent PM schedule and at the first signs of damage, I will opt to replace them then. I only plan to use this coach one weekend a month at the most, so I felt this was justification enough to make what some may consider a rash decision.

OK, so let me have it.......... Grin
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2010, 04:07:22 PM »

You have to do what is best for you, but me for a 150 bucks in parts that baby would have spring brakes, the service brake diaphragm on springs are 7 to 15 bucks 


good luck
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2010, 04:09:11 PM »

Billy, I will not jump on you, but something seems wrong with the pricing.  I don't have any experience with DD3 diaphragms, but they sure don't look significantly different from spring brakes or typical air brake chamber diaphragms.  I think you can buy diaphragms for less than $20 for air chambers.

If they are really that expensive, and IF you have very carefully inspected them, then go for it.  On air brake chambers, I always tell folks to very carefully check the cans, as they can have fatigue cracks and fail drastically.

Jim

Edit:  Like others, I would love to see you go to spring brakes, but understand the plumbing issue.

The more I think about the corrosion in your chambers, the more concerned I become about the chamber integrity. 

I did a quick search and found these diaphragms:

http://store.valueweb.com/servlet/busfixx0/Detail?no=23

Don't know if they apply or not.

Jim

« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 04:22:30 PM by rv_safetyman » Logged

Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2010, 04:22:28 PM »

They are that expensive Mohawk has the best price and they are not cheap there either that is why most of the older Eagles are changed to spring buy one from Jerry Jefferson he will make you pay attention or give you a heart attack lol


good luck
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2010, 04:45:32 PM »

Sorry to say again but I just have to.

Just a great example of how to take photo's

Many thanks

Lonnie
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 04:47:20 PM »

Jim, if you look at this link....

http://store.valueweb.com/servlet/busfixx0/Categories?category=Brake

the two diaphragms at the bottom are the ones needed for the rebuild. Looks like I could've saved a few bucks over Luke's price. By the way, thanks for the link....

luvrbus, I sure would like to put the spring cans on there, but in addition to the plumbing issue, I'd of had to cut my current brake chamber mounts and fab up some new ones. Wouldn't have been a difficult job, but I have to take into consideration what would happen if, God forbid, I get in a wreck and someone gets injured or killed by my vehicle. When the lawyers got finished running me through the ringer, I wouldn't know up from down....

EDIT: After rereading this post, I realized that Barn Owl suggested a few posts back that I change to spring brakes. Barn Owl, I surely don't want you to read this and think that I disapprove of your tactic. I just felt it easier and simpler (although more expensive) to go with the rebuild option on my current brake configuration.....again, no disrespect meant at all.....I certainly appreciate your input
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 06:21:15 PM by bwze » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2010, 05:11:03 PM »

Billy, thanks for the link to the two diaphragms.  The service one is a very deep (tall) unit.  We used to make brake diaphragms at Gates (I used to run the test lab that fatigue tested them).  I can appreciate that it would be a difficult piece to make.  That coupled with a low volume would drive the price up.

I probably got confused in the details along the way, but I though your DD3s were a modification on your bus.  It looked to me like one of the brackets was a bit home brewed.  Probably my imagination.

If the DD3s were a modification, then all bets are off when it come to liability.

Jim
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 05:24:32 PM »

Jim, I can't say for any certainty that the DD-3's were original equipment because, like you, I thought the mounting plates looked pretty flaky too. That being said, I do know that at some time later in the service life of the 4106, DD-3's were standard equipment (I think RJ may have stated around '63). There was an addendum to the original manual that included a section dedicated to the DD-3's (I need to buy one of these by the way) along with some other later additions. I have to admit, that link you found with those diaphragms has really got me thinking though. I may end up going ahead and biting the bullet and getting those babies.
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 05:30:31 PM »

GM  buses had ICC brakes till 1966 or 1967 if my memory serves me and it doesn't sometime RJ or Teke would know for sure


good luck
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 05:47:12 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 05:45:24 PM »

Here's the quote from RJ's reply in my original brake post....where he states that the 4106 came with the DD-3's as an option around mid 1963. So I still don't know it mine were original or not HuhHuh .........from the look of those mounting brackets though, one has to wonder. Guess I'll never know.

Billy -

WAIT!

Before you try what Robert suggested, take a look at your rear brake cans.  There are two different types of parking brakes used on buses, DD3 and Spring.  Spring brakes were not an option on 4106s, but DD3s became optional long about mid-year of 1963 production.  A previous owner may have installed either type, so you need to determine what you've got, because the release procedure is different between the two types!

How can you tell what you've got?

Simple - look at the rear brake cans.  How many air lines do you have coming off the cans - 2 or 3?

If two, you have spring brakes.

If three, you have DD3s.



Release Procedure - Spring Brakes

1.  Build coach air pressure up to governor cut-out (approx 120 psi).

2.  Lightly cover service brake with foot - do not apply, just cover.

3.  Push in on parking brake knob until it seats.  Wait 3 -5 seconds.

4.  Put coach in gear and away you should go.


Coach should roll after #3.  If not, then pull knob back out to reset brakes and repeat steps 1 - 3.  If coach still doesn't roll when put in gear, something is wrong and needs to be looked at.  Make sure coach wheels are properly chocked, preferably front and rear, before doing any investigative work.


Release Procedure - DD3 Brakes

1.  Build coach air pressure to governor cut-out (approx. 120 psi).

2.  Lightly cover brake pedal - do not apply, simply cover.

3.  Push in parking brake knob to release parking brakes.

4.  AFTER pushing in knob, apply a FULL service brake application (FLOOR IT) and hold for 3 - 5 seconds.

5.  Release service brakes, coach should roll when put into gear.

6.  If coach doesn't roll, lightly cover service brake again (do NOT apply - just a light touch).

7.  Pull knob to reset parking brake.

8.  Repeat steps 1 - 5.


As stated above with spring brakes, if the coach doesn't roll after steps 1 - 5 are repeated, there may be a problem that needs investigation.


Setting Spring Brakes for Parking

1.  Once parked, lightly cover service brake sufficiently enough to just keep coach from rolling.

2.  Pull parking brake knob to set brakes.

3.  Release service brake - coach should not move.

4.  If coach will move with parking brake set, have brakes looked at immediately!


Setting DD3 Brakes for Parking

Procedure is basically the same as for Spring Brakes, but the critical point here is that you LIGHTLY hold the coach with the service brakes before pulling the knob to set the parking brake.  You should ONLY apply enough service brake to keep the coach from rolling, no more.  The harder you have the service brakes applied, the more difficult it will be to release the DD3s. 


FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink


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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2010, 06:48:18 PM »

I had DD3's on our 1968 Eagle 01 and decided after many phone calls to various vendors and of course my buddy Clifford, I changed out to 30/30 Spring brakes on the rear axle. I had one DD3 leaking real bad and to fix it cost more than two new Spring cans. It's not that hard to do, but then again it was on an Eagle. In your case I'm not sure. The Spring brake can has the same bolt pattern as the DD3 and they bolted right up.

The availability of DD3's is going south, so the price goes up! Spring brake cans are available at almost anyplace they sell truck parts.

Yes, you do have remove the inversion valve, add a QRC1 and plug one line, but not hard at all. After all I did it!  Grin

Paul
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