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Author Topic: Is my transmission toast?  (Read 8131 times)
luvrbus
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« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2011, 08:30:55 AM »

A new off the self B500 is close to 30 grand best for him to exchange instead of a shop rebuild exchanges run from 10 grand up plus labor to install he could be looking at 20+ grand for a shop rebuild.
I know people with the V730 and 740's has cost over 10 grand for a shop rebuild always cheaper to exchange than rebuild your own fwiw 



good luck
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Tom Y
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« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2011, 09:36:13 AM »

I talked to a shop in Ca. that had new 4560s I think. New takeouts for 5500.00. Some prices out there are amazing. These are from test trucks that must be dismantled. This would be the same as the 500 unless he has a retarder. I think I saw one on Ebay for 5 or 6K  Tom Y
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Tom Yaegle
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« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2011, 10:15:47 AM »

I know people with the V730 and 740's has cost over 10 grand for a shop rebuild always cheaper to exchange than rebuild your own fwiw 

good luck

  Wow. I think I would really be wondering just how heavy a clutch is if they threw those figures at me.
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Melbo
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« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2011, 12:32:18 PM »

My 4 speed ZF was 10 grand -- give or take a bit for a rebuild --- I took it in and got it back in about a three weeks.

I thought that was plenty but a rebuild on them can run 15 to 20 I was told.

A rebuild and good maintenance and you should be good for at least two or three years ;-)

Melbo
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« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2011, 07:18:59 PM »

In my experience the Prevost regional service managers are more savy than the 800 tech number.  Try Tom Munds, Rocky Mountain regional tech rep in Denver.  You can get his number off the Prevost web site.  If it comes down to a trans replacement or rebuild look for the surplus fire truck sites.  After you part out the truck you get the trans for free.  Would have to have Allison reconfigure the ECU for coach application though.
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mikke60
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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2011, 03:56:40 PM »

does your bus have linkage or does it shift with a solenoid as I have seen on Some beaver motorhomes
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belfert
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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2011, 05:11:34 PM »

does your bus have linkage or does it shift with a solenoid as I have seen on Some beaver motorhomes

B500 transmissions are completely electronic.  If you're talking a shift linkage from front to back like a mechanical HT740 they do not have that.  They have a push button electronic pad for shifting.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2011, 02:50:42 AM »

oh ,ok, I am not that familiar with that transmission. I have seen trannys that do shift with electric solenoids however. had the same issue with one,only to find a wire had broken loose and would no allow the trans to shift into reverse, just the forward gears.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2011, 06:36:35 AM »

They are electronic control but have 3 different shifters 2 different pads and 1 shifter lever type not all keypads Brian 


good luck
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H3Jim
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« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2012, 03:28:11 PM »

Well after two years, I finally have some resolution to the issue.  I moved to a new house, had both my knees repalced and had a major heart attack.  Finally got back to trying to do something with the bus. Its just been a very expensive mouse house in my yard.  I thought I'd post this rather than start a new topic for some continuity to those that had been following my plight.

I had towing insurance, so had it towed to Valley Power Systems in La Jolla, in the San Diego Area for a diagnosis.  They said that a drive hub was broken along with one of the clutches was burnt.  The best thing to do is to have them R&R with a factory rebuilt.  $9406.  comes with a warrantee, and all wear parts are brought back to spec.  ouch, but with out a trans, the bus won't ever move again.

For those of you that want to know the guts of a B500, here is a good overview from a very knoweldgeable source.  I lifted this from YUKU, TOW411 site. 

I'll give you a quickie overview on what the Allison World transmission is made of and how it works. To achieve any range, two clutches must be applied. When you start the engine and have proper pressure, C-5 clutch, located at the very rear of the trans, is applied, and is used in reverse, neutral, and 1st range only. There are 5 clutches in a standard on- highway application (military and some off-highway/severe duty applications have 6 to achieve 7 forward ranges) and they are labeled C-1 thru C-5. There are 3 planetaries, labeled P-1 thru P-3. The numeral designation is from front to back of trans. C-1 and C-2 are located behind the front pump in what's called a rotating clutch hub, C-3 thru C-5 are called stationary clutches, they are secured to the inside of the main housing by a series of tabs located on their reaction plates. The clutches are applied and/or dropped to change what component of the planetary gear needs to be held or released. Rule on planetary components is: one input, one held = one output. The sun gear is in the center, surrounded by four planetary gears, with the ring gear on the outside. A sun gear is located on any of the the shafts that run thru the center of the trans: turbine shaft, which connects torque converter to C-1, C-2 rotating clutch hub, the main shaft, which runs thru C-3-C-5 and P-1 and P-2 carriers, and the output shaft, which is in P-3 carrier. C-1 clutch is used in 1-4 ranges as a constant, C-2 in 5-6. If your customer states that he has reverse but no forward range, chances are likely that there is a problem with C-1. Allison had a problem with the C-1 clutch hub in 2000-20003 production models where the center was breaking out of them. The torque converter can be both a fluid and mechanical connection to the engine. In a World trans, you start off in converter mode(fluid) and change to lock-up mode(mechanical) thru each shift. By the time you are in 3rd or 4th, when you shift, the converter does not have to drop lock-up to achieve the shift. Note: if you have a truck that has an active ABS light on, and the trans feels sluggish or like it's slipping, or if you let off the throttle at highway speed and your engine rpm's drop out but your speed doesn't, it is because when you have an active ABS fault, the lock-up clutch in the converter is dropped to prevent internal trans damage. If you came to a stop with the lock-up clutch on, it would stall your engine just like a manual clutch, so the trans, thinking that you might be spinning your wheels, protects itself. The bottom line is that all these clutches are electronically controlled thru solenoids, that change the hydraulic fluid path to apply and/or drop clutches. I see more wiring harness (OEM supplied) issues that cause transmission complaints than anything. That being said, if the harness has shorted out, you can never know what is going on inside the trans, and the pricing for replacement w/out labor is as follows: 1000/2000 series - $2500.00, 3000 series - $4200.00-$5200.00 depending on model, 4000 series - $8200.00-$9200.00 depending on model. Use some of this info to dazzle your customers with, or apply to your own vehicles. You can always contact me if you are having specific problems and I will do my best to assist. And always CYA and pull an axle or the drive line!

When you put it into drive does it take a few seconds and then kind of 'thump' into gear?? If the selector isn't flashing 'R' then the ECU (trans puter) thinks everything is OK and thinks the proper solenoids are being activated, so you may have either an internal pressure problem or a stuck solenoid. Revving the engine up some while in reverse should throw a code at some point, because the puter will see reverse selected and engine input speed, but no turbine speed (internal trans speed) or output speed. Reverse requires the highest fluid pressure of any range in the trans.Today at 6:49 am
You: Yes it thumps into drive. I've tried keeping rpm at 1500 for a bit, no code. Yes the R is steady, not blinking. Could it be a wire somewhere that got knocked off, chewed off?


Thanks.


Jim


svcmgrnow: Unfortunately I'm thinking you may have a low pressure problem. If it was strictly electrical you should have gotten a 'range verification' code when going to reverse: the ECU looks for the output signal and a return voltage signal to verify the solenoids have been commanded on properly. I'm thinking this is more mechanical. Reverse uses C3 and C5 clutches, 1st uses C1 and C5 clutches so either C3 is not being applied properly or there is a pressure issue like a bad clutch piston seal. Unit been sitting awhile or used regularly??Today at 7:09 am
You: Been sitting.

So, kind of a drain on the bank account, but have to do it, can't let it sit on their lot.  Not many other alternatives.
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Jim Stewart
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« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2012, 03:59:30 PM »

That price doesn't seem too bad for a rebuild from an Allison dealer.  Glad to see you got the bus running again.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
luvrbus
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« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2012, 04:05:03 PM »

Always cheaper to exchange a B500
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TomC
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« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2012, 10:43:41 PM »

Ahh-one of the nice things about having a dirt reliable HT740-albeit only 4spds with no overdrive.  But-our relatively light weight buses really don't need the overdrive if you have the right rear end ratio.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2012, 11:56:16 PM »

Jim;

You might want to call Prevost and ask if they are still running there summer exchange special.  Last year they ran a great deal on brake parts, this year I swear I seen transmission pricing.   Clifford might have also seen it.   I find that Prevost has some pretty good deals.   
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luvrbus
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« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2012, 04:52:39 AM »

Best deal I found on the B500 was from Penske in Cerritos Ca I paid 9000 xchange (no install labor) out the door with the fluid, filters , ECU and new harness with nation wide warranty we all do it different but no way would I buy a takeout or used transmission for a H-41 those suckers are heavy

Buy rebuilt from dealer you get all the upgrades made to transmission over the years and a warranty and there has been plenty of upgrades made over the years Jim will be into it for over 12,000 before it is finished 

Not for sure but I was told Penske does the rebuild xchange program for Prevost


good luck
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 04:58:42 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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