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Author Topic: Auto start for Gen  (Read 3495 times)
Eagle Andy
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« on: January 02, 2011, 06:22:38 PM »

Just a quick ? Is a auto start for your Generator when your battries fall below 12. volts or what ever you have it set for worth the money ? and do many of you have them in your conversions . Iam thinking if you do alot of Boondocking and away from your Bus for long peroids of time. it might be something to consider . Anyway I was just wondering Thanks Andy
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2011, 06:42:35 PM »

Andy, if in fact that is what it is for I want one also. I look forward to the answer to this one myself.


Mark
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2011, 06:49:43 PM »

I don't know about all the auto starts the ones Dick Wrights sell work off the inverter and the inverter senses the low voltage and not all inverters have the feature and some generators they do not work on so be careful buying one they gather dust mine did lol


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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2011, 06:50:02 PM »

Mark I have a 12kw kabota Gen from Wirco and they have an option that you can install but I think there kind of pricey
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 07:07:49 PM »

The Murphy is the best unit but it cost around 600 bucks it doesn't use the inverter and can be programed 

good luck

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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 07:42:25 PM »

I have one in my bus and it is very nice.
Mine is the smartgen. I leave it on even if I am not around. With my gen it starts and shuts down after about 10 min. Keeps everything happy. Wink
Gary
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 08:53:55 PM »

Andy, if you have an inverter with the built in feature, it should not cost you much.

I have a Trace SW2512 and it has the auto generator start capability built in.  It can start the generator based on battery voltage or other factors.  It can even be programmed to not start during rally quiet hours.  I never programmed mine, as I was worried about running the generator when I was not there.  I finally got my system installed (shoe makers kid sort of thing), but have not found the time to complete the wiring for the function. 

Jim
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 08:58:09 PM »

Thanks everyone for the replys , Jim Iam going to call Dick this week and ask him if my inverter will support one . Terry bought the complete setup from Dick so iam hoping he can answer my ? thanks again to all Andy
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 10:04:04 PM »

Auto Gen Start is a standard function of the Xantrex RS3000 inverter I installed in 2005, but to use it, an additional Gen Start Module is required (about $100).

I chose to bite the bullet back then, and am glad I did.

I don't use it much, but when you need it...you need it.

HTH

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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 11:09:23 PM »

Also something to think about is wether you are going to leave a pet in the bus.
I believe all the auto starts even the ones that run off the inverter will start with thermostat to run your air conditioning.

Gary
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 04:35:08 AM »

Autostart will also do a few other things.

It will also start the gen if the cabin gets too hot.You can preset an a/c and if the thermostat triggers it triggers the autostart.

It will also sometimes takeover power supply if incoming power eitherfails OR if it is forsome reason too low.

It will also exercise the gen on starts that are adjustable timed intervals, 1 hr once a week etc.

I have one I have installed 2 others got them all from Dick Wright. Great product great service.

I have a Universal Kabota gen and a Heart inverter his magnum products worked on these and all other manufacturers and combos I  have come across.


2 thumbs up on autostart
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 05:46:27 AM »

I have one in my bus and it is very nice.
Mine is the smartgen. I leave it on even if I am not around. With my gen it starts and shuts down after about 10 min. Keeps everything happy. Wink
Gary

If it were me, I would program it to run a minimum of thirty minutes with a load.  That can't be good for the engine to run for that short a time.
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 06:16:44 AM »

Andy, before you buy ask Dick if the 2 wire auto start will work for you I have that one still in the box I bought from him btw you are going to need more house batteries with the 2 you have it will be starting every 5 minutes 


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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 09:02:11 AM »

Although many of the auto gen start devices including the ones built into inverters have many if not all of the features we need to start the generator, I believe there is one feature missing to stop the generator. Have yet to find one that will shut down after 80% battery charge has been completed. Every one I have seen shuts the generator down after pre-programed duration. Problem with charging batteries is it takes 20% of the time to charge to 80% and 80% of the time to charge the last 20%. Running a generator to charge the last 20% is a waste of fuel. To save on generator fuel cost and wear and tear, would be nice to a auto gen controller that would shut down after batteries reach the 80% charge level.
Kenny
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 09:28:55 AM »

Kenny, good point.  Just very difficult to achieve.  To do that, you would need to have an integrating type SOC device built into the "system".  There are some that can work with an inverter, but that makes the system very complex. 

I think that most folks can learn how long the generator has to run to charge the batteries to 80%.  Should not be much of a function of what else is running, but will be a function of how you set your inverter in terms of "input amperage available".  You could then set the run time to get you close.

That said, I am a bit over my head here and may be too far out on a limb Grin

Jim
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 09:43:49 AM »

Check out the Xantrex LinkPRO battery monitor.  It can monitor 2 banks of batteries and can be programmed in a number of ways to start and stop the generator - by voltage, state of charge, and max run time.  If you look around, you should be able to pick one up for about $250.

http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/linkpro-battery-monitor.aspx

Steve
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Eagle Andy
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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 10:05:36 AM »

Thanks Clifford I will do that , I was looking at my paper work and Terry bopught this whole set up in 1997 so am hoping the two wire is the one . And yes Iam going to increase the battery bank this year . Thanks again for all the info guys it helps a great deal  Andy
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 11:12:18 AM »

Although many of the auto gen start devices including the ones built into inverters have many if not all of the features we need to start the generator, I believe there is one feature missing to stop the generator. Have yet to find one that will shut down after 80% battery charge has been completed. Every one I have seen shuts the generator down after pre-programed duration. ...

The generator start system built into the Trace SW series does not use a programmed duration.  To achieve 80% charge simply set absorption time to zero.  When the bulk phase completes the batteries will be at about 80% SOC.  To get 100% SOC you need to set absorption time to 2 hours or greater, depending on bank size.

We set absorption time to zero or ten minutes (the settings are only in ten minute increments) when we are boondocking on the generator.  We set absorption to three hours when plugged in to shore power.

Automatically stopping the generator at less than 80% SOC can be achieved by setting the bulk voltage lower than spec.  So it is possible with these inverters to set any arbitrary discharge/charge profile you wish merely by changing the settings.

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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2011, 01:24:15 PM »

Sean or anyone else, is there a stand alone battery monitor / auto generator start (separate from inverter) that has the features you mention?
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2011, 01:46:53 PM »

Kenny, check out the Murphy www.fwmurphy.com there is no reason to buy the RV stuff Murphy cost a few bucks more but well worth it.
A friend of mine has a Murphy sytem that has a cool down for diesel engines doesn't use the inverter for nothing  


good luck
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2011, 02:37:26 PM »

Sean or anyone else, is there a stand alone battery monitor / auto generator start (separate from inverter) that has the features you mention?

Kenny, if you have a "2-wire" generator you have lots of options.  The LinkPro that Steve linked to above can be programmed to do it, as well as the older Link-10 (or Link-20) with optional relay contacts, and its predecessor the E-Meter.  I think Bogart's monitors have the same option.  These are all state-of-charge (SOC) meters and so can be set to start and stop the generator at any arbitrary SOC desired, plus give you low voltage protection and sometimes a current-based option as well.

If you have a 3-wire generator, then you need a way to first convert it to on/off (2-wire) operation.  Here is where the Murphy products that Clifford (luvrbus) mentioned come in.  That said, there are perhaps a dozen similar products on the market, and Murphy is at the higher end of the spectrum.

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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2011, 04:40:51 PM »

Sean , How do you determind if you have a 2 wire or three. I talked to wrico today and he said I can not use a two wire auto start with the set up I have and told me he had a system for 300.00. I am really not good at this elec stuff always learning. Thanks Andy
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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2011, 04:56:42 PM »

That is funny Andy when I bought the 2 wire system from him in 1999 or 2000 he told me it would work with the system I bought there a 13k generator and the same inverter you have guess there is some difference in a couple years huh


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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2011, 05:13:42 PM »

Yea Clifford I hate talkin electronics with smart guys, I mean I guess he told me the right stuff but when I told him what I had he started talkin all this stuff I have no idea what it ment lol , The first thing he wanted to know was what kind of two wire you had ? and we never got much better than that  Grin He was helpful and all I just wish I would have knew what he was saying lol
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2011, 05:39:40 PM »

Sean , How do you determind if you have a 2 wire or three.

Andy,

A "2-wire" has a simple on/off switch (which might be instead an on/off key).  When you move the switch or key to "on" the generator starts, usually after a short delay, and then continues to run.  When you move the switch from "on" back to "off" the generator shuts down.

A "3-wire" typically has either a pair of switches, or a single switch that has three positions: center "off" and a momentary in either direction.  You hold the switch one way (or one of the two switches) to heat the glow plugs, which you usually have to time yourself.  Then you hold the switch the other way (or operate the second switch) to crank the starter until the engine fires.  To shut down you hold the switch back in the same direction as you did to pre-heat, or hold down the pre-heat switch, or it may even be a third "shutdown" switch.

Obviously the 3-wire type needs more gadgetry to get it to work automatically, since you now need to have some timers to automatically heat the glow plugs for a specific time, then crank the starter for a specific time (or have some way to know the engine has started) and then you also need to hold the stop solenoid in for a set time on some sets.  A 2-wire generator takes care of all this for you.

Many RV inverters with built-in generator controls can handle both 2-wire and 3-wire sets.  On my SW4024 I have to set the pre-heat time, the maximum crank time (although it stops earlier when it detects the engine running) and the recovery time between starting attempts for my 3-wire generator.

The LinkPro and similar devices have no way to do all the things required to start and stop a 3-wire set.  They have only a simple contact closure to say that the generator should or should not be running.  A 2-wire set can handle that, but a 3-wire unit needs a little control box to essentially convert it to 2-wire operation.

HTH,

-Sean
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 05:51:46 PM »

Okay all, NOTED. when I get to the point that the genny and her controls go in I got to have one of these.

Mark
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 05:54:09 PM »

Thanks Sean , Now that I could and did understand . I have a three wire and the control box you mentioned is what the Gentelmen mentioned today . So If I want to add this auto start to the Bus I will coat me about 300.00 bucks I just have to be sure if I really need it . Thanks again Andy
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2011, 07:01:37 PM »

Like Andy I have a three wire Wrico. 

My inverter is an Trace SW2512.  In reading the manual it looks like all of the components and control is within the inverter.  The text that confuses me a bit is:

Quote
Three  wire  start  generators  do  not  include  automatic  engine  cranking  control  system.  Separate
control of the starter motor requires additional interaction between the inverter’s auto-control system and
the  generator.    This  also  adds  complexity  to  the  installation  since  more  wires  must  be  connected  and
more programming of the inverter is required. Troubleshooting can also be more difficult.

I think that says that the Trace will do it all but takes some significant set-up.  It says that the inverter has the required relays built in and the software to control the system.

Am I close?

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2011, 07:18:38 PM »

Jim,
The one problem with the SW2512 auto start system is that it can't sense the genny running if for some goofy reason the genny doesn't put out AC power.  Dick Wright was very fearful of this, so he sold me a Gen Mate.  It cranks and senses "run" after the engine starts regardless of AC output. 

Think about it, if the inverter doesn't get AC input it will continue its cranking cycle continuously, engaging the starter even if the the genny is running.  I understand Dick's logic after thoroughly reading the Trace manual.   I never found a way to overcome this potential problem, which is why I purchased the Gen Mate from Wrico.  I do feel it is important because I'm at the mercy of my Todd transfer switch to throw the relays after the genny sends its power down the line. 

The 2512 can and will auto start your genny, but be aware of the weakness.

I've only used my auto start system once.  It is great when you need it.

David
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2011, 07:31:18 PM »

Before you guys confuse Andy more he does not have a SW series Trace inverter thought you may like to know


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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2011, 08:37:12 PM »

Before you guys confuse Andy more he does not have a SW series Trace inverter thought you may like to know

Clifford, I think everyone knows that.  I also assume that Andy knows not all of the above applies to him.  As often happens, it seems we have multiple discussions going on in a single thread.

I think that says that the Trace will do it all but takes some significant set-up.  It says that the inverter has the required relays built in and the software to control the system.

Am I close?

Jim,

If you already have the three wires running from the genny to the Trace, it takes about five minutes to hook them up and another five to program it.  The SW will take care of everything.  I can talk you through it over the phone.  Piece of cake.

The one problem with the SW2512 auto start system is that it can't sense the genny running if for some goofy reason the genny doesn't put out AC power.  Dick Wright was very fearful of this, so he sold me a Gen Mate.  ...
Think about it, if the inverter doesn't get AC input it will continue its cranking cycle continuously, engaging the starter even if the the genny is running. ...   I never found a way to overcome this potential problem, which is why I purchased the Gen Mate from Wrico.  I do feel it is important because I'm at the mercy of my Todd transfer switch to throw the relays after the genny sends its power down the line. 

This is not accurate.

First off, the SW can sense the AC from a running genny if it has been connected as Trace intended.  The problem is that Dick and other installers tend to use only AC2 and put a transfer switch between the SW and the genny, which complicates things a bit.  This is due to a limitation imposed by the fact that the SW's internal transfer switch does not have a provision for switching the neutral, however there are other ways of dealing with this.

That said, even if you have an intervening transfer switch, the SW has settings to deal with it.  Figure out how long it normally takes your genny to turn over and set Maximum Crank Seconds to that number or that number plus one.  Now no matter whether the genny starts or not, that's the most cranking it will get.

If the genny does not start or the SW does not see good AC on AC2 within the programmed delay interval, it will send the STOP signal and try again.  It repeats this five times and if still unsuccessful provides an error and quits.

Note that even if the stop signal was not sent, it is impossible to crank a running generator because the pre-heat signal is always sent before cranking, and the pre-heat and stop signals are the same.

In order for this to work the SW generator on-delay and the transfer delay on the external transfer switch need to be coordinated.

Again, I can talk anyone through this configuration.  If you own an SW series inverter, no external generator start system is required.


-Sean
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« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 06:38:31 AM »

Sean, as usual, thanks for great information!!!

I will take a rain check on the offer.  Have so many other projects (both bus and other) that it will need time to raise to the top.  Perhaps we can work on it if we meet up in Shoshone in March.

Jim
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« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 08:22:35 PM »

The one problem with the SW2512 auto start system is that it can't sense the genny running if for some goofy reason the genny doesn't put out AC power.  Dick Wright was very fearful of this, so he sold me a Gen Mate.  ...
Think about it, if the inverter doesn't get AC input it will continue its cranking cycle continuously, engaging the starter even if the the genny is running. ...   I never found a way to overcome this potential problem, which is why I purchased the Gen Mate from Wrico.  I do feel it is important because I'm at the mercy of my Todd transfer switch to throw the relays after the genny sends its power down the line.  

This is not accurate.

First off, the SW can sense the AC from a running genny if it has been connected as Trace intended.  The problem is that Dick and other installers tend to use only AC2 and put a transfer switch between the SW and the genny, which complicates things a bit.  This is due to a limitation imposed by the fact that the SW's internal transfer switch does not have a provision for switching the neutral, however there are other ways of dealing with this.

That said, even if you have an intervening transfer switch, the SW has settings to deal with it.  Figure out how long it normally takes your genny to turn over and set Maximum Crank Seconds to that number or that number plus one.  Now no matter whether the genny starts or not, that's the most cranking it will get.

If the genny does not start or the SW does not see good AC on AC2 within the programmed delay interval, it will send the STOP signal and try again.  It repeats this five times and if still unsuccessful provides an error and quits.

Note that even if the stop signal was not sent, it is impossible to crank a running generator because the pre-heat signal is always sent before cranking, and the pre-heat and stop signals are the same.

In order for this to work the SW generator on-delay and the transfer delay on the external transfer switch need to be coordinated.

Again, I can talk anyone through this configuration.  If you own an SW series inverter, no external generator start system is required.


-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com



Sean,

I had forgotten about the glow plug/stop sequence which would stop the genny in a subsequent crank attempt if it was running, but the Trace sensed "no AC 2".  That makes sense.  I wonder why Dick was so insistent about a separate gen start system?

Andy, sorry to hijak your thread since you don't have a Trace SW2512.

David
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« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2011, 06:32:29 AM »

Which Murphy unit are we talking about, they have several. ASM 170 ?
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